Here is a basic video of Sil Lim Tau check it out…tell me what you think…
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1031690]Here is a basic video of Sil Lim Tau check it out…tell me what you think…
http://www.youtube.com/user/stan4900#p/u/4/ybN8e_bzlJY[/QUOTE]
Compare to how Sum Nung taught it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVhRMzywe6Y
(that’s Sum Dek, Sum Nung’s son and the inheritor of the lineage).
I have to say both have problems imo…
The first one had no rooting or body connection/linking.
The second one… with that Wu Sau so low, is completely unrealistic as there is no way it’s gonna provide any real guard against a headshot. The low position in itself creates a big time delay to protect the upper gate. I won’t even bring up structural integrity.
To each his own of course.
You really can’t tell much about a fellows WC by watching his SLT. It is all different than mine. So I don’t think it is good to judge by looks. However, I think the dark fellow was pretty good. Real good in fact.
[QUOTE=duende;1031711]I have to say both have problems imo…
The first one had no rooting or body connection/linking.
The second one… with that Wu Sau so low, is completely unrealistic as there is no way it’s gonna provide any real guard against a headshot. The low position in itself creates a big time delay to protect the upper gate. I won’t even bring up structural integrity.
To each his own of course.[/QUOTE]
All forms have problems – forms themselves are a problem. 
But, if you are going to practice someone’s curriculum/forms, like Sum Nung’s for instance, the “test” is how well you replicate their curriculum/form. A good example is Chris Chan who does/teaches his SNT with dynamic tension. Regardless of what you believe about doing the form that way, if you call what you do Chris Chan WCK and then do soft serve WCK, it is not a good representation of Chan’s curriculum.
And, fwiw, wu sao is not a “guard” against a head shot. Nor is it something to “protect the upper gate”.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1031729]All forms have problems – forms themselves are a problem.
But, if you are going to practice someone’s curriculum/forms, like Sum Nung’s for instance, the “test” is how well you replicate their curriculum/form. A good example is Chris Chan who does/teaches his SNT with dynamic tension. Regardless of what you believe about doing the form that way, if you call what you do Chris Chan WCK and then do soft serve WCK, it is not a good representation of Chan’s curriculum.
And, fwiw, wu sao is not a “guard” against a head shot. Nor is it something to “protect the upper gate”.[/QUOTE]
As a tool in itself it is the protecting hand or guard that comprises the wc second line of defense. As in two hand Jong sau/2-line defense and earth triangle structure.
For gate theory to function properly… The guard hand has to reside in the proper time and space. Other wise timing, structure and positioning will be compromised and faced with over coming bad habits such as collapsed structure and timing delays… Meaning further distance to travel to cover space.
Two-line Jong sau is where all other wc upper gate defenses are “born”. Without this body mechanic awareness, one always trying to make up for weak structure, bad positioning, and off timing.
[QUOTE=duende;1031744]As a tool in itself it is the protecting hand or guard that comprises the wc second line of defense. As in two hand Jong sau/2-line defense and earth triangle structure.
For gate theory to function properly… The guard hand has to reside in the proper time and space. Other wise timing, structure and positioning will be compromised and faced with over coming bad habits such as collapsed structure and timing delays… Meaning further distance to travel to cover space.
Two-line Jong sau is where all other wc upper gate defenses are “born”. Without this body mechanic awareness, one always trying to make up for weak structure, bad positioning, and off timing.[/QUOTE]
You could fertilize a garden with this stuff!
But you are very good at regurgitating what you have been told.
Obviously you are defensive due to your own attachments. This is understandable considering the amount of time you put into this system. But by your own admission… It was not functionable. This is one of the reasons why.
A boxer must always keep his hands up. Wu Sau as part of Two line Jong Sau is not so different.
You can justify techniques all you want as being true to a form etc… But that’s BS. Techniques should serve and moreover PROVE the concept from which they were conceived. A low protecting hand does not protect anything and is garbage IMO.
[QUOTE=duende;1031769]Obviously you are defensive due to your own attachments.
[/QUOTE]
How is what I said “defensive”? LOL!
This is understandable considering the amount of time you put into this system. But by your own admission… It was not functionable. This is one of the reasons why.
Yes, I’ve only been practicing WCK almost 30 years, and put “in more time” than you or your sifu. But that is neither here nor there. I never said my WCK isn’t functional. In fact, I credit Robert with helping me make my WCK functional (I wasn’t able tio make it functional until after I trained with Robert).
A boxer must always keep his hands up. Wu Sau as part of Two line Jong Sau is not so different.
WCK is not boxing. Two line jong sao is nonsense.
I’ll give you a hint – in the SNT, we do the tan sao, fook sao, and wu sao in the SBF section. All those ACTIONS occur after contact, and are bridge hands (hands in contact with an opponent).
You can justify techniques all you want as being true to a form etc… But that’s BS. Techniques should serve and moreover PROVE the concept from which they were conceived. A low protecting hand does not protect anything and is garbage IMO.
There is are no concepts. Concepts are bullsh1t. Wu sao is an action, a contact action (you are doing something with it). There are no passive hands in WCK.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1031779]How is what I said “defensive”? LOL![/QUOTE]
When someone like yourself foolishly suggests planting diamonds to use as fertilizer merely to sound clever and insult… Then it’s safe to say you’re not only being reactionary and defensive, but talking out of your a$$!
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1031779]
Yes, I’ve only been practicing WCK almost 30 years, and put “in more time” than you or your sifu. But that is neither here nor there. I never said my WCK isn’t functional. In fact, I credit Robert with helping me make my WCK functional (I wasn’t able tio make it functional until after I trained with Robert).
[/QUOTE]
Exactly… You’ve said numerous times that you couldn’t make the WC you studied for twenty years work. How is that functional?? Then miraculously, after some long-distance seminar training with Robert everything makes sense… How is that functional?
Obviously you need to study more with Robert, because you have no idea what your talking about in these matters… and need MUCH more time because a low Wu Sau is NOT FUNCTIONAL and leaves you open to attack.
As for your delusions of grandeur… I doubt even Robert can help you with that.
My Sifu has been teaching for more than thirty years. And not one of the dozens upon dozens of Sifu’s/instructor’s from WC, TCMA, and Non-TCMA’s he’s touched hands with would ever question his skill like you do. Not even your own Sifu Robert Chu.
So stop being a putz! We’re all over being embarrassed for you.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1031779]
WCK is not boxing. Two line jong sao is nonsense.
[/QUOTE]
Wow…
I’ll leave that one alone. No sense in tearing apart a tired old person riddled with delusion.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1031779]
I’ll give you a hint – in the SNT, we do the tan sao, fook sao, and wu sao in the SBF section. All those ACTIONS occur after contact, and are bridge hands (hands in contact with an opponent).
[/QUOTE]
No ****. But if they are residing in a low position, with inherently weak structure already in place… That’s a time delay. Therefore upon contact when the technique is called into action it will be severely handicapped.
You argue just to argue.
Sad… Robert’s not the only person who could be your teacher.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1031779]
There is are no concepts. Concepts are bullsh1t. Wu sao is an action, a contact action (you are doing something with it). There are no passive hands in WCK.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it is a guarding and protecting hand. This is part of the action, a part that set-ups the contact action.
Structure is alive, structure is energy.
This obviously is something you still need to learn.
Life is too short, and I’d much rather spend more time playing guitar then waste time trading insults with you.
Let’s just agree to disagree. I honestly wish you the best.
[QUOTE=duende;1031783]Life is too short, and I’d much rather spend more time playing guitar then waste time trading insults with you.[/QUOTE]
How could more guitar ever be a wrong answer?
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1031784]How could more guitar ever be a wrong answer?[/QUOTE]
I prefer more cowbell, but to each his own 
[QUOTE=duende;1031783]When someone like yourself foolishly suggests planting diamonds to use as fertilizer merely to sound clever and insult… Then it’s safe to say you’re not only being reactionary and defensive, but talking out of your a$$!
[/QUOTE]
All that stuff – wing chun 2nd line of defense, 2 line jong sao, earth triangle structure, proper time and space, gate theory, etc. – are not diamonds but nonsense.
Wu sao is an action/movement not a position/shape (you don’t hold it out there as a “guard”). That movement/action has an optimal path. It is also a transition (a way to move from A to B). These are illustrated in the SNT. What wu sao does is protect your structure (wu) by transitioning in a certain, specific way – keeping your elbow down, moving in the center, etc. It is an example of the kuit chum jang sao jong.
An example of this is doing continuous pak saos on the dummy – the “retreating” hand (after having pak’ed) is a wu sao, it follows the path illustrated in the SNT, low, underneath the outgoing pak sao. But it doesn’t come to stop or stay like some prayer palm (in WCK we “lien juk bat ting lao”, train to continue without stopping or staying), but continues on as it is a transition to the next movement, a pak sao in this case. But, if you took a picture at the right moment, you would see the shape commonly associated with the wu sao.
The chain punches, lien wan choi, are punches that combine with wu sao (the “retreating” hand) - if you stopped the action at the right moment, again you would see the hand poised in front of the chest like the shape associated with wu sao.
Holding a “prayer palm” in front of your chest – or worse, face – as “protection” is very low-level WCK.
Exactly… You’ve said numerous times that you couldn’t make the WC you studied for twenty years work. How is that functional?? Then miraculously, after some long-distance seminar training with Robert everything makes sense… How is that functional?
You don’t know what you are talking about. I visited Robert many times, and we would train, I’d take what he taught me, go back and train it, then return. As I have said, I was lacking in several fundamentals, like body structure and the faat mun, that are necessary to make WCK functional.
Obviously you need to study more with Robert, because you have no idea what your talking about in these matters… and need MUCH more time because a low Wu Sau is NOT FUNCTIONAL and leaves you open to attack.
See above where I explain what wu sao is – does your hand coming back low when you do chain punches, for example, leave you open to attack?
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1031861]All that stuff – wing chun 2nd line of defense, 2 line jong sao, earth triangle structure, proper time and space, gate theory, etc. – are not diamonds but nonsense.
[/QUOTE]
You’re welcome to your opinion. But it is clear that once again you are making blind assumptions based on your own experiences and not giving any thought to what I actually wrote.
Otherwise, you would not write what you have below…
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1031861]
Wu sao is an action/movement not a position/shape (you don’t hold it out there as a “guard”). That movement/action has an optimal path. It is also a transition (a way to move from A to B). These are illustrated in the SNT. What wu sao does is protect your structure (wu) by transitioning in a certain, specific way – keeping your elbow down, moving in the center, etc. It is an example of the kuit chum jang sao jong.
[/QUOTE]
No one here has said Wu sau is merely a static position or shape. These are YOUR words and YOUR understanding based on YOUR need to be always right and ignorant of the greater knowledge of other’s.
And btw… the optimal path YOU describe above is clearly not present in the video your posted. As it leaves the entire upper gate vulnerable to attack. What’s “optimal” about that??
I’m not talking shapes here, I’m talking TIMING.
Practicing forms one way, and then applying the techniques completely different is nonsense!
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1031861]
An example of this is doing continuous pak saos on the dummy – the “retreating” hand (after having pak’ed) is a wu sao, it follows the path illustrated in the SNT, low, underneath the outgoing pak sao. But it doesn’t come to stop or stay like some prayer palm (in WCK we “lien juk bat ting lao”, train to continue without stopping or staying), but continues on as it is a transition to the next movement, a pak sao in this case. But, if you took a picture at the right moment, you would see the shape commonly associated with the wu sao.
The chain punches, lien wan choi, are punches that combine with wu sao (the “retreating” hand) - if you stopped the action at the right moment, again you would see the hand poised in front of the chest like the shape associated with wu sao.
[/QUOTE]
So basically for your chain punch scenario here to work in tandem with your “optimal” Wu Sau… what you are essentially saying here is that you advocate chain punching the human gate. Leaving your guard wide open on the upper gate… Not very smart. Won’t work against any boxer. Doesn’t matter how you “retreat”, you’re gonna get knocked the F’ out.
Talk about nonsense!
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1031861]
Holding a “prayer palm” in front of your chest – or worse, face – as “protection” is very low-level WCK.
[/QUOTE]
More ludicrous assumptions.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1031861]
You don’t know what you are talking about. I visited Robert many times, and we would train, I’d take what he taught me, go back and train it, then return. As I have said, I was lacking in several fundamentals, like body structure and the faat mun, that are necessary to make WCK functional.
[/QUOTE]
Great… I’m glad you were open to receive some help. One should never stop learning imo.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1031861]
See above where I explain what wu sao is – does your hand coming back low when you do chain punches, for example, leave you open to attack?[/QUOTE]
So now you are either flip flopping or agreeing with me and the martial knowledge that the Wu Sau was too low in the vid you posted.
Comparing SLT
If you compare videos of Sil Lim Tau with in the Sum Nung Lineage. All of them look different compared to each other. Same thing with Ip Man lineages.
Check these videos out and discuss how they are different and similiar!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPHZ0xrd5fY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prTFbXgIM4Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giVMjnCkTBo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNEBr8XVi3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaGnTqk_FlU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybN8e_bzlJY
All of these videos are from the Yuen Kay San/Sum Nung lineage. But each Sifu adds there own innovations. Just as Bruce Lee innovated his wing chun so does every body else. So if you study Wing Chun you will see that which each sifu of the same lineage the forms will not be an exact match. Some things and principles will be constant. Its the Principles that make the lineage and not the hand posistions. Some do there wu sau fok sau thrice hands at chest level. So that you are reeling and pushing from the middle dan tien. Others do so at face level. Both are good depending on the attack. But a form is just a form to develop certain aspects of your WC. If you want to have proper technique when fighting one must practice drills and fighting. You drill each technique over and over again until its apart of conscious thought. An you also apply each technique in actual phyiscal sparring. Thats when how it is to be used comes out. Wu Sau has more than one usage. Same as fok sau and tan sau. You may use them differently. In some cases if you use the tan sau in certain way it is called a different hand like Tok Sau. But in either case its all from ones own perception which undoubtely stems from your training or lack there of.
As for Terrence Niehoff. My Sihing as offer you a Challenge to train and spar.
anytime you want to see how good his boxing punches are or even test his WC attack and defense you can meet him for free at Forest park, Heman Park,Rabe Park, Miller Park or any other St.Louis park your familiar with. Give me a name and number to reach you…an i will give the info to Stan. An we can video tape you sparring with him and you can post that up saying how well you fare with his power. Because I will tell you that man has alot power even when he is not throwing with all his might. His power will make you back up. I like to see you stand there while he feeds you punches!
Clarence,
You’ve got to be kidding. Just look at how your “sihing” moves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY
Seriously. You really think this is good? That was pure crap. That isn’t even good beginner level WCK. It’s bad beyond words! Everyone was off balance, they were both out of range, there was no power, what was being practiced was sh1t (if you cross pak like that you WILL be KOed, that’s a REALLY bad habit to teach) – and Stan’s son is backing up because he was afraid of being hit (which tells me he doesn’t spar) and has no skill or body connection. It was sh1t responding to sh1t.
Just by looking at Stan I can tell that he isn’t even in shape to spar. And I can tell by how he moves, he doesn’t have the basic skills needed to spar. He would get seriously hurt really sparring.
Stop fantasizing. “Your people” are “not about sparring” – if they were, “your people” wouldn’t put up this nonsense but put up sparring clips. We both know that I have intimate knowledge of “your people”. Look at Stan’s own description of the clip you posted: “We are applying the Si Lim Tao techniques in combat.” WTF? He thinks that is “combat”?
As I have told you, I think – from knowing a great deal about your group, and from our conversations on and off the forum – that you guys are nuttier than squirrel poop. I want nothing to do with crazy people since IME (and I deal with them on a professional level all the time) they end up doing crazy things which only causes grief for anyone around them. The idea of out of shape, unskilled people getting together and 'sparring" (and God knows what you think that is) in public parks – which btw is against the law in St. Louis, but nutty people never think of such things – only shows how nutty you guys are.
I told you before, if you think you guys are good, there is a very easy way to find out – go visit any decent MMA or MT gym and ask to spar. But I got to tell you, most reputable gyms won’t let you spar unless you can prove that you are in physical condition to spar. For example, where I train you would need to show that you can do 50 push ups at a clip, 200 sit ups, 20 minutes of straight cardio (running, rope, etc.), etc. before they would let you spar.
FWIW - Sum Dek is doing it the way Sum Nung did it, the way every direct student of Sum Nung I’ve had the fortune to meet does it.
If you see a Siu Lien Tao that’s substantively different than that, it’s not what Sum Nung taught. (And no, there are no secret versions).
Also, the Wu Sao is done like that in YKS/SN. Every system is a cohesive whole and any piece taken out absent that whole probably won’t make sense by itself, especially when interpreted in the context of a different system.
[QUOTE=reneritchie;1032001]FWIW - Sum Dek is doing it the way Sum Nung did it, the way every direct student of Sum Nung I’ve had the fortune to meet does it.
If you see a Siu Lien Tao that’s substantively different than that, it’s not what Sum Nung taught. (And no, there are no secret versions).
Also, the Wu Sao is done like that in YKS/SN. Every system is a cohesive whole and any piece taken out absent that whole probably won’t make sense by itself, especially when interpreted in the context of a different system.[/QUOTE]
Great to see Rene is here.
Here are my 5 cents.
1,
There are signatures of every lineages which could be identify and look for. But if those signature is missing then one is no longer doing the same thing.
I myself do not buy in such claim as every master add in their stuffs or to be innovation as Bruce Lee etc.
Form is not for innovation and creativity. There are purpose and reason for doing things.
2, according to Yik Kam text of 1850 the Wu Sao in SLT in fact needs to be done as in YKS/SN. The reason is simply there are certain key considerations in term or body, mind, and breathing which needs to be satisfied.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1031990]
Seriously. You really think this is good? That was pure crap. That isn’t even good beginner level WCK. .[/QUOTE]
IMHO,
1, I think you could phrase you words better. let’s not get into personal.
2, technically What the clip shows, even thought could be looked common these days for WCner , it is not showing WCK.
but some type of beginer level of Nam Kuen two hand fighting.
As for the reach out, the issue is lots of people using the reach/ stretch out to generate power in order to feel secure on handling the in coming hand. and that turn into dead trap for take down.
3, That SLT practice got a problem.
and this problem is also common these days for WCners.
and that is to let loose the different part of body going different way or get into chaos. Some get this bad habit from trying to imitate the Chen Taiji’s reel silk.
instead of reel silk, it turns into a under damp or in stability dissaster.
Stan Response to the BS
Stan is at my house right now. He has somethings he wishes to share about some of your comments. His page is not approved yet so He is typing on my account. Anyway Here are his views to your negative comments.
Stan’s response;
First of All Rene Ritche. I read your book Yuen Kay San. I thought we were brothers. All one family. But since we are not this is what I think of you! Your horse stance is weak! I can tell you do your Sil Lim Tao real slow. So I know you can’t defend against an American Boxer from the Hood. They would hand your hat to you. They would jab at you an as soon as you would try to defend they would pull it back and punch you with the other hand. An when you try to run in with chasing step they would be backing up striking you in the face. Your Sil Lim Tao is done slow. So your fighting would be slow. You don’t even understand this yet. An if you say you do, You haven’t met a good boxer that can jab. We always train in boxing gyms in the inner city of St.Louis such as wholes community center and tandy community center. They all had golden glove boxers constantly working out. The Likes of Leon Spinx, Michael Spinx, Hands of Stone, and Big hands would all throw punches at us. An all we did would use SLT to defend ourselves. In your book Yuen Kay San chapter six page #56 Extinguishing the candle Flame. Your student is doing it at three inches. Thats for Babies. A real Expert can extinguish a candle flame from four feet away. I know you can’t because it aint in the book. You all are just babies. Anyone can tell I was doing Wing Chun, what makes it Wing Chun are the hand techniques such as Pak Sao, Tan Sao, Bong Sao. Everyone does their forms differently. But your making it seem like everybodies form is the same. You are a liar. You know everyones forms is not the same.
Terrence Niehoff Your just fake. Where is your youtube video. You don’t have one do you? Your just amateur. When you do the form Sil Lim Tao, each hand technique is done with one hand with the exception of one section. That is the double Bil Sao section. I know you don’t know what you watching. So you just think Juijitsu is the Ultimate Art. But it is not. It Just a wrestling art. Alot of those guys are getting knocked by those who aren’t that good of a boxer. You are not qualified to critique my hand techniques. Until you post your youtube video. Because I know how its going to look. Your going to be rolling around on the ground on top of each other butts. Like ***s.