Is Siu Lim Tao enough?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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There has been a lot of discussion here about Siu Nim Tao (; xio liàn tóu) on the forum lately.

As a bit of an outsider looking in I wonder if the Siu Lim Tao Form is enough?

Do you really need the other forms or is Siu Nim Tao enough to truly master Wing Chun?

Should the form be done at great speed and strength (like some forms of Wing Chun) or should it be softer, fluid (like Snake Crane Wing Chun for example)?

Which is better in your opinion and why?

In my Zhenlan Minghequan, we follow the adage of “Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fluid & Fast” ()

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[QUOTE=Minghequan;1267451]There has been a lot of discussion here about Siu Nim Tao (; xio liàn tóu) on the forum lately.

As a bit of an outsider looking in I wonder if the Siu Lim Tao Form is enough?

Do you really need the other forms or is Siu Nim Tao enough to truly master Wing Chun?

Should the form be done at great speed and strength (like some forms of Wing Chun) or should it be softer, fluid (like Snake Crane Wing Chun for example)?

Which is better in your opinion and why?

In my Zhenlan Minghequan, we follow the adage of “Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fluid & Fast” ()[/QUOTE]

Hi Ron, It’s an interesting question, one that I think depends on one’s personal insights into Xiao Lian Tou. As you metioned some perform it slow and deliberate with strength to emphasize aspects such as Wai Gong within a Gang Fa structure. Others perform it slow and deliberate with flexability to emphasize aspects such as Nei Gong within a Rou Fa structure. Still others combine the two and emphasize Fa Jin aspects. It varies greatly not only within lineages but also amongst practitioners within a lineage. IMO it’s a personal preference type of thing. What you’re looking to get out of the practice, health benefits, martial benefits or a little of both. It’ll be interesting what responses come of this, I look foward to others insights as well.

3

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1267451]

As a bit of an outsider looking in I wonder if the Siu Lim Tao Form is enough?

Do you really need the other forms or is Siu Nim Tao enough to truly master Wing Chun?

[/QUOTE]

Siu Lim Tao on its own is not enough. In fact SLT only forms the very basic fundamentals of the system. Not only physical but also mentally SLT acts as the foundation form.
The form consists of actions and ideas that have been dismantled and separated so that the student can learn the core elements. Translated as “the small (or young) idea” it begins the process of growth. Certain basic strategic concepts such as facing square to the opponent, the central line idea and force generation are all inside. Basic co-ordination and synchronized actions teach the student how to move the arms but only in a one dimensional context.

Fundamental simplification of human actions and error correction.

Without Chum Kiu, SLT actually makes no sense because we are not rotating or moving the stance in any way. Just training the structure of it. The integration of the hip/elbow force rotation has not yet been introduced. How we can control our actions through abrupt stopping and starting has not been introduced. Balance, mobility, kicking, footwork ideas and punching concepts are added in CK but now in a three dimensional way so that the student can learn how to apply Ving Tsun correctly using simple and direct methods.

As well as SLT, Chum Kiu movements and ideas are abstract. They are learning tools broken down for individual needs. The cycle of chi sau – gwoh sau – sparring we learn to apply these ideas.

So the answer to your question in my opinion is NO! SLT is pointless without the rest of the system. People that think SLT is a fighting form in which one can survive a fight using it’s methods have very basic and misinterpreted understanding of the system. People that do not have a sound understanding of the rest will obviously over indulge in SLT and this is incorrect. You can see the problem everywhere. People trying to chain blast up the middle fighting from YJKYM position.

No wonder the system gets so much bad press these days.

You only have to read through Hendriks posts to see what problems we have out there in the big wide world. Snake worm engine theories, or whatever, for fighting are for people that live in clouds.

Troll over xx

4

Good post Graham! One “unofficial” kuen kuit I’ve heard is “Chum Kiu puts wheels on your Siu Lim Tao.” :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Graham H;1267454]Siu Lim Tao on its own is not enough. In fact SLT only forms the very basic fundamentals of the system. Not only physical but also mentally SLT acts as the foundation form.
The form consists of actions and ideas that have been dismantled and separated so that the student can learn the core elements. Translated as “the small (or young) idea” it begins the process of growth. Certain basic strategic concepts such as facing square to the opponent, the central line idea and force generation are all inside. Basic co-ordination and synchronized actions teach the student how to move the arms but only in a one dimensional context.

Fundamental simplification of human actions and error correction.

Without Chum Kiu, SLT actually makes no sense because we are not rotating or moving the stance in any way. Just training the structure of it. The integration of the hip/elbow force rotation has not yet been introduced. How we can control our actions through abrupt stopping and starting has not been introduced. Balance, mobility, kicking, footwork ideas and punching concepts are added in CK but now in a three dimensional way so that the student can learn how to apply Ving Tsun correctly using simple and direct methods.

As well as SLT, Chum Kiu movements and ideas are abstract. They are learning tools broken down for individual needs. The cycle of chi sau – gwoh sau – sparring we learn to apply these ideas.

So the answer to your question in my opinion is NO! SLT is pointless without the rest of the system. People that think SLT is a fighting form in which one can survive a fight using it’s methods have very basic and misinterpreted understanding of the system. People that do not have a sound understanding of the rest will obviously over indulge in SLT and this is incorrect. You can see the problem everywhere. People trying to chain blast up the middle fighting from YJKYM position.

No wonder the system gets so much bad press these days.

You only have to read through Hendriks posts to see what problems we have out there in the big wide world. Snake worm engine theories, or whatever, for fighting are for people that live in clouds.

Troll over xx[/QUOTE]

5

“unofficial” kuen kuit I’ve heard is “Chum Kiu puts wheels on your Siu Lim Tao.”

i’ve heard that one to keith, i always liked it. my sigung always says the two most important forms in the wing chun system are
siu nim tao and chum kiu.

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[QUOTE=KPM;1267456]Good post Graham! One “unofficial” kuen kuit I’ve heard is “Chum Kiu puts wheels on your Siu Lim Tao.” :)[/QUOTE]

Very true Keith. Some people can’t see the wood for the trees and all of a sudden SLT becomes something it was never meant to be (IMO). Every system needs a foundation and start point. SLT is like the alphabet. I could not have a conversation with you in letters. We have to form sentences then conversations and SLT cannot do that alone.

SLT is very important and should be continually practiced through-out the practitioners life time of Ving Tsun.

As for the “kuen kuit” everybody is entitled to their own opinion on it.

I personally don’t like it…

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[QUOTE=deejaye72;1267458]i’ve heard that one to keith, i always liked it. my sigung always says the two most important forms in the wing chun system are
siu nim tao and chum kiu.[/QUOTE]

Not true (IMO)

They are all as important as each other. It is a complete system and only dismantled for learning purposes.

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Sli Lum Tao is more than enough, with the teacher.

Take care,

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1267461]Not true (IMO)

They are all as important as each other. It is a complete system and only dismantled for learning purposes.[/QUOTE]

true i agree. i think he is just trying to emphasize how important the first steps are.

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[QUOTE=deejaye72;1267467]true i agree. i think he is just trying to emphasize how important the first steps are.[/QUOTE]

In that context I agree :wink:

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[QUOTE=Ali. R;1267462]Sli Lum Tao is more than enough, with the teacher.

Take care,[/QUOTE]

For you perhaps but then you are the guy that thinks things take 20 years to master. You and your students may agree but I do not! Ving Tsun is a very simple, clear and precise system. The students hard work and willingemss to apply determines their proficiency. Sure skill comes from time spent practicing but that is where it ends otherwise maybe we can’t become good at Vt until we have checked into the old people’s home! :smiley:

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No one “needs” any form, no forms are actually “needed” any any MA system.
That said, when used properly and for what they were designed for by those that developed them, they certainly help.

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That’s Funny

Good one.

[QUOTE=Graham H;1267469]For you perhaps but then you are the guy that thinks things take 20 years to master. You and your students may agree but I do not! Ving Tsun is a very simple, clear and precise system. The students hard work and willingemss to apply determines their proficiency. Sure skill comes from time spent practicing but that is where it ends otherwise maybe we can’t become good at Vt until we have checked into the old people’s home! :D[/QUOTE]

No one said anything about not being good in what you do, that has nothing to do with it. It’s not how good you are, but how good you can be. Master your SLT (fundamentals) and don’t worry about the other stuff before its time.

Take care,

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1267471]No one “needs” any form, no forms are actually “needed” any any MA system.
That said, when used properly and for what they were designed for by those that developed them, they certainly help.[/QUOTE]

How can you say that? It seems slight contradictive to me. :confused:

That’s like saying that a young child does not need a Teacher or to learn their ABC’s. Sound learning processes are not just to do with Ving Tsun. It is a necessity of life and all humans need it otherwise the world would be a very different place.

The evolution of Ving Tsun has adopted a method of learning and we do that via the forms and interim drills. Humans have been fighting way before any MA doctrines were invented but they needed to create, learn, preserve and maintain the system.That’s the way it is.

No need for it???

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[QUOTE=Ali. R;1267472]Good one.

No one said anything about not being good in what you do, that has nothing to do with it. It’s not how good you are, but how good you can be. Master your SLT (fundamentals) and don’t worry about the other stuff before its time.

Take care,[/QUOTE]

Yes and that time is when a student is ready. Depending on the student with dilligent training then 3-6 months is no problem otherwise it will in fact cause errors. SLT then becomes a maintenance form. No need for any other ideas.

i don’t want a sparring match with you. Our systems could not be more different. I prefer other ideas.

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1267473]How can you say that? It seems slight contradictive to me. :confused:

That’s like saying that a young child does not need a Teacher or to learn their ABC’s. Sound learning processes are not just to do with Ving Tsun. It is a necessity of life and all humans need it otherwise the world would be a very different place.

The evolution of Ving Tsun has adopted a method of learning and we do that via the forms and interim drills. Humans have been fighting way before any MA doctrines were invented but they needed to create, learn, preserve and maintain the system.That’s the way it is.

No need for it???[/QUOTE]

I agree, but, I knew a guy who trained for 4 years just doing chi-sau and serious sparring on a regular basis. His teacher never taught him the forms. He wiped the floor with a group of guys boasting 10+ years in their CMAs.

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[QUOTE=LFJ;1267475]I agree, but, I knew a guy who trained for 4 years just doing chi-sau and serious sparring on a regular basis. His teacher never taught him the forms. He wiped the floor with a group of guys boasting 10+ years in their CMAs.[/QUOTE]

People don’t need Martial Arts in order to be able to fight. It’s an evolutionary thing that we are all capable of. Some people are better than others. That’s life. If the forms weren’t so important generally then why have them at all?

Most systems of Ving Tsun descend into BS frenzied kick boxing at best. Put two people together and tell them to punch and kick each for a year and they will be good fighters. In that case no need for Ving Tsun.

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[QUOTE=Minghequan;1267451]There has been a lot of discussion here about Siu Nim Tao (; xio liàn tóu) on the forum lately.

As a bit of an outsider looking in I wonder if the Siu Lim Tao Form is enough?

(((SLT is the most important fundamental text book for those who are interested in an Ip Man approach to kung fu training. SLT has different sections- each with principles built into them while developing structure strength. I have been doing wing chun since 1976- except for three days I have done slt every day sometimes more than once a day.
When done right slt has breathing principles. The first section when done slowly trains the fundamental tan, bong(wu), fok families of motions and the huen.

The chum kiu builds principles of full body motion on top pf the structure developed in slt.
You never finish mastering wing chun if you are serious about the wing chun way. There are other ways and depending on the competence of the teaching
and the practice and the experience- there are diversities in wing chun training..))Joy

19

Combat is based on momentum and force flow.
There are two core handling needed to handle momentum and force flow, and they are receiving and sending

Thus, in the wck core kuit, it says, come Receive, goes Send.
SNT is to develop the foundation of Receiving and sending.

emei snake engine is the core design and embedded in SNT to
develop the short strike art receiving and sending.
Simple, sophisticated, elegance, and complete.

Similar to yin and yang , receiving and sending manifest to millions of things
That is called

Ten thousand things source from the small area.

in the emei 12 zhuang kuit.

Those who has developed the receiving and sending ability stays in peace,
no matter how the momentum changes.
For there is only two handling needed------ receiving and sending

If one don’t know this summary of wck, and SNT to develop it, what does one train and expert it?

Without the six core elements and seven bows handling, how can one master receiving and sending?

such a simple thing open under the public, but ignored by most in the past 160 years.

Wck is simple, sophisticated, and elegance.
Like water, it only do receiving and sending in the direct, roundabout, and return to origin momentum.

SNT is enough for the core. No need to patch up with other stuffs while don’t know it’s purpose and goal.
Missing this above is totally missing the key of wck .

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[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1267477]
The first section when done slowly trains the fundamental tan, bong(wu), fok families of motions and the huen.

[/QUOTE]

So in your ways what does Tan, Fook and Bong specifically train in SLT? What is it’s purpose? Why practice them repetetively and slowly? Especially fook sau.