I was wondering how the different lineages train the Tan/Fook/Huen part of the Siu Lim Tao (first 50 movements) and maybe why?
Some train the first part using tension (I read this on Duncan Leung’s site) and maybe San Franciso’s Paul Chan? Some do the first part totally relaxed (Kenneth Chung). Some do the first Tan Fook quickly and even come out with sort of a snap. I know a Jiu Wan lineage guy that did this. Some take 30 minutes to complete the first section of the form and it’s done in a realxed way. One person by the name of Patrick Chow had students do the first part relatively quickly (normal demo speed) but would have them repeat and repeat until one hour elapsed. All of the above people were pretty good.
Originally posted by yylee Wah! your WC must be very good!
not from sitting there making shapes that was a long time ago , when i was told the stories of yip man and his 1 hour slt
so instead of being like mike , i wanted to be like yip
until one day my teacher slapped me in the back of the head and told ‘’ what the hell are you doing , yip was an old man more concerned with chi gung , you are are young , now go train with a person and learn to fight ‘’ ha ha ha
As Ernie aluded to, the forms are for learning shapes. You learn what to do with those shapes in chi sau, lop sau, and free sparring. The ‘saam pai fut’ section is used by many to perform chi gung (as opposed to some chi gung form). If your group practices chi gung separatly, you may do this part of the form quick, or if the ‘style’ is more internal and chi gung is incorporated, then it is done more slowly. Whatever your WC dogma is.
Me, I do meditation/chi gung/kundalini stuff separatly so the forms in my WC are strictly form practice, and done at the same pace as the rest of the form. Although, I will say that I do focus breathing during form practice, but the entire form and in all forms, not just one part of one form.
Originally posted by Rhat
[B]There is a set called Saam Pai Fut in Chi Sim Weng Chun.
Did Yip Man borrow this term"Saam Pai Fut" from Chi Sim Weng Chun?
Any thought? [/B]
I can’t say, for sure, where the term entered into Ip Man WC.
Saam pai fut, translated means; ‘three bows (to) buddha’ , which is a common ‘theme’ in Buddhist prayer/meditation. It is possible that the tradition, as it is practiced in WC, was introduced at WC’s origin (in the Temple or Red Boat Opera, which ever is your belief), as the anti-Qing movement had heavy ties to the Shaolin.
As Ernie aluded to, the forms are for learning shapes. You learn what to do with those shapes in chi sau, lop sau, and free sparring. The ‘saam pai fut’ section is used by many to perform chi gung (as opposed to some chi gung form). If your group practices chi gung separatly, you may do this part of the form quick, or if the ‘style’ is more internal and chi gung is incorporated, then it is done more slowly. Whatever your WC dogma is
If that is indeed Coach Ernie’s position- IMO it is limited.
The forms are not just for learning “shapes”… a tan sao is not just a shape-the mother tan sao in the form for instance is a very deliberate motion.
In action- the “shape” may not be visible to all but the proper motion should be there.
Merely because its 2004 it does not mean that one can dispense
with the development of the motions of the art and still call it wing chun..
Its ok to play great electric guitar music- just dont call it the sitar.
Originally posted by Vajramusti If that is indeed Coach Ernie’s position- IMO it is limited.
The forms are not just for learning “shapes”… a tan sao is not just a shape-the mother tan sao in the form for instance is a very deliberate motion.
In action- the “shape” may not be visible to all but the proper motion should be there.
By learning ‘shapes’, I mean; the positions (physically) your body takes in certain techniques and the idea behind that technique.
The actual technique is learned by connection to outside energy/pressure (i.e. opponent). You cannot possibly train the form with these energies/pressures in mind until you have felt them in practice (chi sau - sparring). It is only through the latter experience that one is able to incorporate that concept into form training, therefor forms do not train the technique just the ‘shape’ of it, and with experience, the technique trains the form.
1.The forms are more than a collection of shapes- by proper correction and repetition one understands imo that the forms are
really the key formulae of wing chun.
2.The application of the formulae and the adaptations one learns
via all kinds of experinces including chi sao are also necessary.
Both 1 and 2 are necessary for it to be wing chun. Again- wing chun is NOT the only path to self defense- but the wing chun path does have its requirements- to wit both form and applications.
Experience can be a very good teacher- but there are lots of pugs walking around with broken bodies who have not learned much while swimming in wet water.
If that is indeed Coach Ernie’s position- IMO it is limited.
---- Why thank you Joy your opinion means a lot to me =)
The forms are not just for learning “shapes”… a tan sao is not just a shape-the mother tan sao in the form for instance is a very deliberate motion.
In action- the “shape” may not be visible to all but the proper motion should be there.
---- Thus once you have the mechanical idea [ form], finding it’s natural application in motion is the real essence, not sitting their collecting dust on your limbs,
But many people like to make wing Chun into tai chi IMO =)
This way they can pretend many different things , and have countless meanings
Pretending things - like visualization tecniques? I think these are important. They not only help develpop the right energy but are also important for fighting and chi sao. SNT should help make your structure strong. Our defintion of structure is the ability to resist muscular force while staying relaxed and without having to redirect.
Once I chi sao with this guy who came to visit and was quite advanced. His hands were so heavy that it I had a tough time. At one point he put his arm out almost completely straight and kept chasing me. Normally it is easy to manipulate some if their arm is straight and yours is bent, but I couldnt move his arm an inch. This was a very threating position to be in. After he had his fun with me he told me “You get that from SNT”.
Originally posted by Ernie
[B]not from sitting there making shapes that was a long time ago , when i was told the stories of yip man and his 1 hour slt
so instead of being like mike , i wanted to be like yip
until one day my teacher slapped me in the back of the head and told ‘’ what the hell are you doing , yip was an old man more concerned with chi gung , you are are young , now go train with a person and learn to fight ‘’ ha ha ha [/B]
If people think forms are just sitting and shape making activities, I have no words to say
tell you a story:
I happen to know someone who had the exact opposite experience from yours. He thought his WC was good under his first sifu (Sifu A). Sifu A used to say “what the hell are you doing! you don’t have to do that (Tan/Fuk/Huen) 3 times to tell people that you are doing WC!!! just cut that cr@p!!”.
Then, years later, after Sifu A retired, that someone I know (let’s call him Neo) met Sifu B. Well… the WC as Neo knew it suddently came to an end, turned up side down completely. Under Sifu B’s instruction, Neo did a full year of SNT, no Chi Sau, no sparring…
Years later Neo became very good in WC. I also happen to know another fellow who is Neo’s senior under Sifu B. He told me: “Oh, Neo came a long way you know. I was watching Neo ‘salvage’ his WC just by standing there, Tan after tan, Fuk after Fuk.. poor kid, but he finally made it”.
I can’t say that I agree with your take on the forms, but I will have to second the statement below. It actually gave me a little chuckle, but at the same time it rings very true.
with out a devils advocate there wouldn’t be a good discussion
I’ve said it once (maybe twice) and I will say it again, if we all believed exactly the same thing…this forum would be of no use!
Originally posted by yylee If people think forms are just sitting and shape making activities, I have no words to say
They are!..if that is all you can see in them.
