But there are pics and video footage of his WING CHUN, which is, after all, what we’re discussing. Forms, weapons, chi sau - all of these are in our system (that is to say HIS system) and there are pics of Yip Man performing them.
So… is there anyone with pics/video footage of Yip Man showing us ground work? Can anyone give a serious answer to planetwc’s question, or is this going to be a post where people say: “I have the answers but I won’t give anyone the details”.
Perhaps another pi**ing contest relating to whose sifu knows the real WC and it’s secret ground work.
“Sifu (A) never learned” can also equal “Sifu (B) made up”. Martial arts is full of both. Does it matter if Yip Man ground grappled or if he liked Ha Gow? Only if your goal is to mimick Yip Man. If your goal is to be good at Wing Chun Kuen, you might have a different answer. If your goal is to be good at fighting, a different one still. And if you’re allegic to Ha Gao, try Siu Mai or Chun Goon.
(BTW- While there is no historical evidence of systematic or emphasized ground-fighting in WCK, Yuen Kay-San was attacked by another boxer once while reclining on a bed 8) )
Perhaps Ip Man didn’t want anyone to know about his secret love of crustaceans. Even godlike people like (Y)Ip Man don’t always tell the truth. Anyway, who really cares – if Wing Chun principles can be applied on the ground, go for it.
Already, without my mentioning Kammon, Black & Blue thought that I was insulting his school.Then Dave began to defend Chung Chows adaptation of wc without specifics. The fragile and diverse nature of wing chun keeps some serious discussions out of the netting zone. So
I will reiterate some points and let it go for now.(still hoping that the yuenfan thread disappears and is replaced by bjj-the savior of wing chun))
There is no published wc syllabus by Yip Man.
Obviously thought that he didnt need one, : good teaching of ygkym, slt, ck,bj,jong, do, kwan, chi sao, chi gerk, practise and application and experience was the wing chun way for empty hand personal self defense-aside from the gun.
I have also found it to be true-same for my best students.
I have practised wing chun on the ground before I ever heard of Gracie… and have tested wing chun aginst competent shooting, attempted arm bars, chokes, mounts-satisfactorily-and I show this to students on some days. I have not had a single lesson in bjj.
I think good wing chun need not be directed towards defending aginst the latest fad but teaches one to deal with whatever is there irrespective of style.
Bad wing chun is useless and even dangerous. Bad YGKYM, Bad chum kiu, bad biu jee, bad chi sao, gor sao etc can get one into deep trouble.
7.Then the “fixes” begin- spar, wear pads, tkd kicks at long range, escrima, jkd gloves,tai chi, mats,bjj lessons and wc begins to become one of the famous Rube Golberg caricatures or contraptions. And some chain store or quick stop kwoons for wider marketing and diversification have add ons.
Too bad we dont have pictures of Yip man on the floor, swinging
froma chandelier, rope skipping, somersaulting into a ring, dealing with rage in the cage or in an octagon, or waiting for the cop McCarthy to say-are you ready?, have escrima sticks in his hand, or nun chucks, tonfas, kukhris, bench pressing, among other cures for incomplete wing chun. Perhaps apart from his well known personal ups and downs: …in martial arts anyway he didnt have attention deficit disorder… a spreading malady in modern times.
It shouldnt be easy to take a competent wc person to the ground.
If by chance it does happen…wing chun knowledge of relative structures of oneself and the opponent and their dynamics and very wide range of tools
of control and distraction, timing and the clear but flexible wing chun spirit- is good enough for lots of good wing chun folks I know…and for me.Perhaps a minority view on this thread buta confident one.
RR - do you know any more details of this inclined attack? Sounds interesting!
I think finding pictures of anyone in WC on the ground besides the infamous W cheung vs Bobo ambush. Like I said in the other discussion string, I dont think there is a whole lot of it out there. I ran into a link not too long ago that had a guy doing some videos on ground combat. They seemed to be pretty good. the guy wore camo pants and some of his demos were inside, some were outside. As with all videos displayed on this forum I think it was attacked for being crap. I think the school was in europe somewhere…
I guess experience is the key. Whatever appoach taken, people must train against ‘going’ to the ground and what to do when there.
What I find ‘dangerous’ is the notion that students are shown armlocks/bars on “some days”. Heaven help such people. If once a month they practise getting dusty on the floor… when they hit the cement… well, who knows what will happen. Maybe that WC spirit will come good. Lets hope so.
I still find it odd that, although no Yip Man originated syllabus exists, we have documented info (whatever the media) on forms, weapons etc, and nothing with regards ground work,… but hey, maybe that’s just odd to me.
Yuenfen… I’ll try not to use your name in a thread title again
B&B, I think you could edit the thread name? Anyway, the training you speak of is sometimes all you need. I dont think you have to be an expert in ground fighting to fight on the ground, like in any other range. Ultimatley our goal would be to be experts, but we must divide our attention to other ranges as well. You must look first at how often one goes to class, or trains on thier own. how many ranges do you believe exist? Lets say there is, pr-contact, contact, close range,clinch, ground. there is 6 I would say, from my point of view, now how often should I practice them? If I practice too many in one day, I better either have a heck of a lot of time on my hands. If I practice one each day well, that means roughly once a week on all ranges. how do I decide. I am in for the long haul with my Wing chun, that means that I may only practice the ground 1 a month, but thats 12 times a year!!! also, I dont think it needs to be concentrated on so much as understood and addressed. A lot of people in WC will say knowing the principles will get you a long way, and I believe this, if you address them periodically then I think that would be sufficient for your average WC man.
((Only when necessary-I even kill the buddha on the path to knowledge))
I guess experience is the key. Whatever appoach taken, people must train against ‘going’ to the ground and what to do when there.
((true))
What I find ‘dangerous’ is the notion that students are shown armlocks/bars on “some days”.
((Specific counters… but the key is knowing wing chun fundamentals very very well-hence some days…by implication evry day))
Heaven help such people.
((heaven helps those who help themselves))
If once a month they practise getting dusty on the floor…
((Some days they dust the floor and help keep the kwoon tolrably clean))
Maybe that WC spirit will come good. Lets hope so.
(Me too))
I still find it odd that, although no Yip Man originated syllabus exists, we have documented info (whatever the media) on forms, weapons etc, and nothing with regards ground work,… but hey, maybe that’s just odd to me.
(not to me…wc prepares the person…wherever he/she maybe.Like
the song from the Phantom of the Opera- where you go let me go to)
Yuenfen… I’ll try not to use your name in a thread title again
((Self effacing is the key- I know who I am))
Cheers for the patient and polite response.
(that was the intent. Am comfortable with civil disagreements
and differnt perspectives))yuanfen aka joy aka tiger(only is needed)
Originally posted by Sabu
[B]LOL! That would be a BJJ approach, not a Wing chun one… LOL
Good luck gentlemen. [/B]
Sorry that should be smoke and mirrors.
“Sabu”, I think you are mistaking this forum for the “Go Fish” card game. It certainly is not a productive way to converse with others.
Now you can either continue to smirk and make condescending posts which provide little more that empty attempts witicisms or you can actually provide some details on what it is you are training and how.
I asked you for details on your teacher’s approach to training and you provide nothing in return. If “Love is the answer”, why not show some LOVE to your Kung Fu brothers, instead of posing as some gadfly and not adding to the conversation?
Otherwise what is the point? Why be on this forum?
To gloat?:rolleyes:
I never saw pics of Ip Man eating shrimp dumplings, am I left to conclude that he hated seafood?
Who’s your seafood, David? [/B]
Wazzup Dogg!
Well, that’s because I haven’t posted those photos on the soon to be famous Iron Chef Wing Chun.
“Stomach likes tofu
Head likes Wine Glass
Bridge likes Iron Chef”
I didn’t remember shrimp dumplings being a part of the Wing Chun system. Ip Man played Mah Jong yet I don’t thing we consider that to be part of our kuen system either. LOL.
Of course Duncan Leung has a picture of Ip Man at a restaurant on his website. Perhaps if one looks close enough you can still see the remains of a shrimp dumpling on the table.
My seafood?, well if it has a first and last name, I don’t know I’d be calling it my food, perhaps my pet or acquaintance instead.
My apologies Planet. I did not mean to seem condescending or to give the impression that I was gloating. But you are almost correct, I did mistake this forum, but for a BJJ forum.
The mount? Is it being suggested that in order to train for the ground, you must assume the mount??? That would be BJJ’s method at training the ground, not Wing Chun’s. Hence the difference in the name. Don’t forget that BJJ trains to be on the floor, Wing Chun does not. So why get comfortable there unless you’re waiting for some birthday wacks.
And please do not forget that Wing Chun IS a complete system, not a subsidiary of another art. Also, it is not an amalgamation of various subsidiaries of other arts.
Sabu say: “Is it being suggested that in order to train for the ground, you must assume the mount???”
No one said ‘must’ for the mount in training for the ground.
Sabu says: “Don’t forget that BJJ trains to be on the floor, Wing Chun does not.”
This expains your WC, Sabu. You don’t train to be on the floor (ie. you/your sifu isnt acknowledging the fact this, despite your best efforts, is where you could end up.
You failed to answer planetwc’s questions. Where do you train and with whom? How DO you train?
Why not just train to avoid being on the floor? Why is everyone so eager to be mounted? is it because of Spring?
From what I understand, WC has groundwork but is smarter than BJJ because WC teaches us to do our dammedest to stay off the ground. Ergo, if your WC sans ground is good, you won’t end up there. Early training of ground work rushes inexperienced students to a position of substantial weakness – sounds great eh?
Of course I am full of **** so just disregard all this.
I agree AD but only to a certain extant. You cant always avoid the floor, its like saying why dont we jst trian to not get hit. Well, we do to some extant but its not a very realistic expectation. If we train for both eventualities we will be ready for either.
Everyone should train to prevent it (as goo WC does).
But, everyone should also train to deal with the event of them being taken down, regardless of the fact they’d rather it didn’t happen.
The floor is the last place I WANT to be. If it so happens that I end up there, the person attacking me will try and dominate this position.
All I’m saying is that we should train for this event. It’s nonsense to believe that because we train to stop being taken down, being taken down will never happen.
The expression “reality check” comes to mind :rolleyes:
Have any of you guys ever been in a real fight? I sometimes wonder
Alpha Dog - My answer to your question makes even me laugh. For the last 4 years I’ve worked as a journalist (in Central/Eastern Europe and the UK)…
I guess what I do for a living DOES make me quite punchable
But seriously, idiots punching, grabbing, clinching, squeezing (!), or using rugby tackles, flying-leap-at-guy-over-bar-table… are the staple.
Toe to toe fisty-cuffs… in our dreams. Wakey wakey Jet Li fans who practise Kung Fu
Some fights ARE avoidable… some. I was covering a story on football violence in Hungary once, and actually saw a group of nutters trying to derail a train carriage. After deciding the 20 or so of them couldn’t ‘rock’ it over, they headed in my direction towards a bar - none of them looking too happy. Suffice to say I didn’t hang around with my press card dangling from my shirt
another pi**ing contest relating to whose sifu knows the real WC and it’s secret ground work.
also, I dont think it needs to be concentrated on so much as understood and addressed. A lot of people in WC will say knowing the principles will get you a long way, and I believe this, if you address them periodically then I think that would be sufficient for your average WC man.