Yuanfen

Checked out your site - very nice. Before I begin, this isn’t an attack on Sifu Fong - despite how it looks. If I had the opportunity to train with your Sifu I’m sure I would jump at the chance. :slight_smile:

But… with regards that pesky dummy form arguement…

On your site there’s an interview with Sifu Fong. He says: “In my time, I have seen many styles and forms but when I do Wing Chun, I teach what has come down from Yip Man through Ho Kam Ming to me.”

So I have to ask, Joy, does Sifu Fong teach the Yip Man dummy form in addition to his own interpretation of the form, or just his own version? Which of the two have you learnt, or have you learned both?

By the bye, I have no problem with his reasons for making adjustments, but if he does so, surely his students can’t complain about other branches/styles of WC making modifications (I think Old Jong was having a bash at the influence of MMA on today’s WC).

On the same thread, you said: “ULTIMATELY- who decides what changes are acceptable- you do-but caveat emptor… avoid the Scylla of innovation for its own sake or out of ignorance and the Charybdis of robotic imitation.”

And later said: “Come to think of it- i wish most wing chun folks would defect to bjj and the lion’s den. They havent learned enough wing chun any way.”

These are two comments that infuriate me! “Innovation for its own sake” and the notion that “they (a poss. ref to groups such as my own - Kamon Wing Chun - where our Sifu studies, successfully, BJJ) havent learned enough wing chun any way”, smacks of arrogance and ignorance.

My Sifu teaches in a very realistic manner. He’s well aware of what works and what doesn’t, and what is needed in a real comabative situation. If he incorporates some BJJ (and as posted before, the concepts of center line, use of relaxation etc, remain), he does so not out of a ‘lack of knowledge’ or for ‘its own sake’, but because he’s imparting skills that are required. He has gleaned this knowledge for practical experience, not the ever-safe confines of a training hall, as is so common with today’s self defence courses.

WC is a fantastic fighting system, and its concepts ‘can’, I believe, be applied for all areas, distances of fighting. Some arts specialise in ground work. If the concepts/principles behind such arts (ie. BJJ) are complementary to WC, why not use them.

I’ve asked before, but no one cares to answer, how often do you train ground work, the clinch etc, in training? How often do put your students under pressure by pairing them up with larger opponents and starting from the clinch, where distance has already been covered/the gap bridged? (bridged to the extent that your opponent’s face is 8 inches from your own)

IMHO, and it really is humble :), one shouldn’t assume that those who practise WC and BJJ are lacking in WC confidence or WC knowledge.

Perhaps, just perhaps, these are people that understand the brutality of fighting a little better than yourself, Joy. You’ve been training since the 70s you say. Maybe you still retain the 1970s attitute? :stuck_out_tongue: :slight_smile: As you indicated, back them no one knew how to spell Ros Grazie :smiley:

Here is some 70s wingchun. :stuck_out_tongue:

Kung Fu Cowboy

Please Please Please… tell me the photo is of you.

I had a bad perm in the 80’s but I now feel a lot better about it now.

:smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

Still Laughing

Nat from UK

Perhaps while he’s at it he’ll explain where the pole and knife forms came from.

Hey cowboy-great pic from the 70s-can I borrow some of that stuff for my pate? On second thoughts no- what you see is what you get. Wouldnt want to cover the light under a bushel.

Hey black and blue–Firstly, no need for a yuanfen thread. It’s embarrassing and i already have a abundance of riches and attention from the anonymous juveniles on the vtaa(and here too)- so a friend told me. While I am dedicated to what i do and express opinions
about a subject…there are 4 things(noble truths?) I try not to do…1. name drop and bring my sifu into it.(he can hold his own in his own way) 2. specifically attack a
well known wc sifu personally(might differ on their methods). I have made exactly zero reference to Kammon. Chung Chow, Alan lee etc 3. not to dwell on myself 4. avoid scatology and try not to initiate trash talk-some humor yes. I am on my own.
Now to what you call the pesky dummy argument: Wing chun forms are compressed texts of the subject of wing chun. As in any serious subjects different editions or texts will have its own approach, footnoies or arrangement… but Physics should not have new age mumbo jumbo and economics should not have lessons in alchemy. Samuelson the son revised Samuelson the father’s basic economic text. Yip Man fiddled with his forms. Ho kam Ming fiddled with his and ditto for Fong- the subject is and remains the same… no mma at any stage. Ho began around 56 with Yip Man-
regular intense and personal lessons for over 8 years-did chi sao with him regularly and remained in close master-student touch till Yip Man’s death. Fong started with Ho in 60 studied with him regularly and intensely, fought for his school, taught for Ho and stayed and stays in touch with Ho over the years. Fong was gone by the time Wu and the younger Ho students came along. BTW YM often visited Ho’s school(when Fong was there). I began with Fong in 76 and stay in touch but I am on my own including strengths and weaknesses.(BTW my sourve of knowledge on self defense is not academic) Fong learned the old way- little talk,
constant correction, the forms, chi sao and key drills. Westerners dont have the patience to learn the way that YM, HKM, and AF learned their wing chun. The basic Ho things are at the core of Fong’s forms. Two things that are different- often old timers on the dummy would show you one side and expect you to figure out the other. In Fong’s forms…both sides are there… making the forma little longer.Then Ho showed different applications of forms.
Fong put some of the key applications in the dummy form. A key example… pulling back on the dummy leg after hooking in- a key application and even concept…but rather than just separate motion its in the AF form. At close quarters if you are losing your balance you can use your opponent for regaining balance sometimes with hands some times with feet.Also rather than a separate kicking section, the kicks are in the dummy. Teaching methods can vary-the truths remain the same at the core. I can do slightly different versions of the forms-depnding on what I want to integrate and when. NO MIXED MARTIAL ARTS IN THERE.
All comes from YGKYM, Chum Kiu and Biu Jee when understood in depth. I believe that I answered your main questions&trust that you are less infuriated(not good for your health).
Finis and cheers.

Ta for the response

Info on form and YM and AF is interesting. Thanks.

My bane isn’t with the form alteration, however. As I said, I can understand the reasons. I even have a few AF videos! (Though not the dummy form :p)

My being infuriated :), is a result of your assumption that those who also train in BJJ have a lack of knowledge with regards WC, and are ‘adding’ for the sake of it.

IMO this is utter nonsense.

And hey, why not mention AF? He’s your Sifu… there should never be shame in this :wink:

Black and blue(see bracketed notes)

Info on form and YM and AF is interesting. Thanks.
(Welcome)

My being infuriated , is a result of your assumption that those who also train in BJJ have a lack of knowledge with regards WC, and are ‘adding’ for the sake of it.
((Not personal. Have not mentioned kammon. Definitional. WC is WC. I express my views but I am not on a missionary journey))))

And hey, why not mention AF? He’s your Sifu… there should never be shame in this

((Shame? What gave you even a hint of that, Hardly. Far far from it. Just not a name dropper. Discussions must have its own merits))

PS: i didnt learn from his videos and dont devote much time to them. I learned the dummy piece by piece before the video came out. i show my students lots of dummy applications that are not directly in the form. There is a fit between everything in wing chun because it is a system of interlocking concepts.

Westerners dont have the patience to learn the way that YM, HKM, and AF learned their wing chun.

Really?

Sure, there are cultural differences on learning environments,
methods of instruction, transmision etc. Note-I did not say that westerners cannot learn eatsern stuff—the teacher has to be
adjust some and the student has to adjust some if they really want to learn the subject.
There is that great story of a westerner travelling to HK to learn single stick froma well known WC master… he held on to a phone with the other hand and talking away on the phone to some one else.

IMHO - there are still instructors who teach the old fashioned way. Unfortunately, this usually causes a high turn-over in students. Students either can’t take the punishment, don’t have the patience, don’t have the time or real dedication to learn. This happens in just about all styles of MA.

Nat-as much as I aspire to being such a ladies man/dandy, I found the picture on the net.

Hey Black and Blue - I dont think tha attack was on you or your sifu specifically. The sad fact is there are many people out there who do not understand WC well enough. They most often must fill gaps with other arts. Sadly those that may know the system pretty well, may not be able to mix in these other arts.
As for your Sifu, maybe he does do a good job in mixing bjj and WC, are you qualified to determine if he is?
Do you see the problem in mixing arts? Sometimes they are not compatible although they may seem so. I highly agree with your training ideas! I think WC people should approach all ranges, there are answers out there, even if you find some of them, you may not get the agreement of everyone else.

Originally posted by black and blue
[B]WC is a fantastic fighting system, and its concepts ‘can’, I believe, be applied for all areas, distances of fighting. Some arts specialise in ground work. If the concepts/principles behind such arts (ie. BJJ) are complementary to WC, why not use them.

IMHO, and it really is humble :), one shouldn’t assume that those who practise WC and BJJ are lacking in WC confidence or WC knowledge. [/B]

I must agree with the notion that if one needs another style to supplement one’s Wing Chun, that person does lacks knowledge of Wing Chun.

It seems you are under the impression that Wing Chun does not have training methods for the ground? I’m sorry to disappoint you, but there are. No disrespect toward your sifu intended. Perhaps he didn’t learn them. It could be just that simple. Not everyone can have the best fortune cookie…

I think that maybe some wing chun that has other stuff added in or made up is offered as pure wing chun so people expecting/wanting to learn groundfighting or a so-called complete system will not be disappointed, therefor some people believe that there is groundfighting in wing chun. If its good stuff, it still works, but it probably wasn’t there since the beginning.

Did Yip Man roll? Did he teach groundfighting? Why is it not found consistently throughout the art? Some say that not everybody learned it, but I’m sure they would of at least heard about it from other classmates who did . I would love to see some wing chun groundfighting that bears no obvious relation to some other art. Are there wing chun breakfalls too? Something just doesn’t jibe. Maybe non Yip Man lineage has it or something, and that’s what accounts for the discrepancy?

For Sabu

Originally posted by Sabu
[B]

I must agree with the notion that if one needs another style to supplement one’s Wing Chun, that person does lacks knowledge of Wing Chun.

It seems you are under the impression that Wing Chun does not have training methods for the ground? I’m sorry to disappoint you, but there are. No disrespect toward your sifu intended. Perhaps he didn’t learn them. It could be just that simple. Not everyone can have the best fortune cookie… [/B]

Sabu,

Please expand beyond your quote above and discuss in detail where the training methods for ground fighting are in Wing Chun.

The supposition that MANY of us are acting on, which perhaps you are not, is that Wing Chun does not train for fighting on the ground to the extent and sylabus of techniques as BJJ, Sambo, Judo and Greco Roman Wrestling do.

Is your claim that YOUR sifu teaches Wing Chun in such a fashion that you have sets which emphasize you being on the ground flat on your back or starting from one of the traditional wrestling positions? Which sets or drills specifically have you either on your back, on your knees, mounted or in the guard, spider guard, butterfly guard etc.

Which lineage is this? I have not seen any photos or videos of Ip Man rolling on the ground or doing newaza equivalents in his demonstrations of Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu or Bil Jee. Nor in the video of the Jong training which is of course upright and does not go on the floor. Nor was such training shown in the photographs from the 50’s when Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu were chosen by Ip Man to publically demonstrate his Wing Chun System.

I have not seen such things in Pan Nam’s system or in descriptions of Sum Nung’s Yuen Kay Shan system either.

So I am left to the conclusion that perhaps your lineage is not from Ip Man?

In any case, I and I think many others would really appreciate more details on what the specific training routines, drills or forms you have within your system.

Does your Sifu have a website or videos out on this subject that one could review? If not, does your si-gung have such material?

Thanks for your time,

regards,

David

Hi all!

red5angel - Am I qualified to tell if my sifu mixes WC and BJJ well? Don’t know :slight_smile: The mix isn’t so much of a mix all said. The classes are WC - that’s what we stick to. If, however, we are in a position where a technique/movement from BJJ can be applied… we learn it and drill it.

On the whole I don’t agree with mixing. If I wanted something else I’d study it. WC is what I love. The incorporation of some BJJ just adds to the fun ‘and’ effectiveness. Because the concepts and ideas used are so similar… it works. Would I want to combine WC with Karate, TKD, etc? NO WAY!!! If the concepts are alien, I don’t believe you can mix them effectively. And why would we want to? I’ve not seen another MA that deals so well with attacks from a ‘standing’ position.

Sabu - I do believe WC has concepts for ground fighting… they are the same as fighting from a standing position. BJJ, as an example, simply specialises in this area, and because the concepts are so similar, can be a great learning experience for the WC player who is taken down. I’d imagine a BJJ player could gain a great deal from joining a WC class, and vice versa.

You’re trying to wind me up too, eh? :smiley: All this talk about WC sifus not knowing enough. LOL. I’m too fresh to WC to say who knows what and who knows best. All I do know is that my Sifu seems untouchable. But then I guess this is the case for everyone studying and posting here.

:slight_smile:

Sabu - who do you learn from? How big is their fortune cookie?

PlanetWC - Well said fella. What more can I say, you’ve said it all. Here’s to hoping Sabu and Joy have the answers AND are willing to give them up. Someone post pics of Yip Man in the mount. For some reason that last sentense cracked me up :cool:

the mount…???

LOL! That would be a BJJ approach, not a Wing chun one… LOL

Good luck gentlemen.

Mounting Yip Man

The mount/squashing/sitting on someone… whatever terms you like. Getting on top of someone when they are down is hardly exclusive to BJJ!

You are a charlaton, Mr Sabu. If you have a response to PlanetWC’s post… post it.

Planetwc sez - "The supposition that MANY of us are acting on, which perhaps you are not, is that Wing Chun does not train for fighting on the ground to the extent and sylabus of techniques as BJJ, Sambo, Judo and Greco Roman Wrestling do. "

I dont think we are looking to see that level of ground fighting in WC at all, those arts are ground fighting arts in general. I think most of us are just looking for WCs’ answers to the ground. I may be reading you wrong…

B&B - No problem, sounds like you have a pretty good thing going then! It is rare to find an instructor who hasnt modified WC to compensate for something. Thats where my belief comes from, the fact that most instructors arent really qualified to alter the art. By now it would take a rare insight to alter it significantly to make it better. Most changes are more cosmetic.

Re: For Sabu

Originally posted by planetwc
[B]
I have not seen any photos or videos of Ip Man rolling on the ground or doing newaza equivalents in his demonstrations of Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu or Bil Jee. Nor in the video of the Jong training which is of course upright and does not go on the floor. Nor was such training shown in the photographs from the 50’s when Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu were chosen by Ip Man to publically demonstrate his Wing Chun System.

I have not seen such things in Pan Nam’s system or in descriptions of Sum Nung’s Yuen Kay Shan system either.

So I am left to the conclusion that perhaps your lineage is not from Ip Man?
[/B]

I never saw pics of Ip Man eating shrimp dumplings, am I left to conclude that he hated seafood?

Who’s your seafood, David?