Originally posted by yylee In my books, as long as the force is pointing towards the opponents, elbow out or in is just a positioning aspect.
Hi yy,
Granted there are different theories and practices around elbow position in some Wing Chun circles. I am aware that TST, for example, does not emphasize elbow position in the same way that we do, nor does Hendrik for that matter. Even taiji enjoys elbows out compared to us, albeit combined with some notable differences in motion and geometry (e.g., an arch through the back) to pack in the wallop.
Maybe these guys in the videos had their punches optimized. To me, it appeared to be a lot more energy and effort expended than powerful punches produced and levied. Much of the time, the body(s) appeared to be adjacent to the strikes, rather than the substance backing up delivery. At the same time, there was a lot more exposure, however unexploited, than I’d be comfortable allowing. I did observe however, that some elbows seemed to be a bit more down in the group pose at the end.
YMMV. In any event they are generous in giving us these gifts to discuss and analyze according to our whims.
Originally posted by kj
I did observe however, that some elbows seemed to be a bit more down in the group pose at the end.
hi kj
so is the Bong Sau elbow-in? or out? I’ve heard many people said “kill the Bong, it’s all evil”
As for Hendrik, I never met him, so I don’t know how his elbows look like. May be he is just too fat to keep his elbows in
Actually for Chi Sau demo’s I’d like to see more “taking-your-space” kind of technique. The moment when one side starts something, because of the lost of contact, the other would immediately come in, take his space, break the structure/balance and eat him alive kind of stuff. Rather than seeing one guy strikes, the other goes even faster, rushing a few Lap, Pak or Gum, then follow up with a good looking strike.
Well, of course that’s just me sitting in front of the computer watching streaming entertainment.
You’re on the money.
I saw stills 8mm footage of a fight between a Tai Chi master and a White Cran master in an old issue of New Martial Hero years ago. Maybe someone here knows where to get the footage.
The controvery was that these two masters, who looked so good doing forms and doing techniques in a controlled evironment, looked like flailing school yard kids when fighting for real. I remember watching a show where two professional kick boxers were having a pre-fight press conference. During the press conference some one from the other camp started hurling insults at the opposition. A fight started between the competitors. They were throwing wild uncontrolled punches at each other until they were separated. Many people think that if you do martial arts that you shoud look like
Jackie Chan or Jet Li when you fight for real. It just ain’t so. Anger/fear/anxiety/ can change all that.
Out. As is lan sau. Both have their appropriate time and place. As far as I know, chain punching isn’t one of those.
I’ve heard many people said “kill the Bong, it’s all evil”
LOL. I would never say that.
However, we do say that “bong sau never stops or stays” since it is precarious to do so, and conversely, it’s usefulness is in not doing so. I also don’t mind “killing” the other guy’s bong sau if he’s silly enough to leave it hanging out there.
Originally posted by kj
However, we do say that “bong sau never stops or stays” since it is precarious to do so, and conversely, it’s usefulness is in not doing so. I also don’t mind “killing” the other guy’s bong sau if he’s silly enough to leave it hanging out there.
Hi kj
good idea! break the Bong before it sends you flying!
Some people just like breaking rules.
Here is another one, I think he is the same guy from the last clip.
Did you ever get to see any of the challenge/test matches that occured at Great Jones Wing Chun School in the 70s? I heard there were a couple
/marcus [/B]
I usually came to the school late after work and stayed until 1 -2AM working out with Raul and his friend Baby (the Bak Mei that always hung around the school). I always heard about them later on and never wittnessed one.
If it weren’t for the old picture you sent me I wouldn’t have remembered about the Madison Square Garden Felt Forum fight where I was one of the corner people. That’s the only major thing I can think of right now. I do remember guys coming by wanting to know what the school had to offer though. Usually after a demo they were convinced.
good idea! break the Bong before it sends you flying!
[/b]
Yes, this is the flip side of the coin. I agree, a properly and judiciously employed bong sau can completely disrupt or control the opponent. A properly applied and timed bong sau amazing - melting the opponent’s energy and stability like a hot knife through butter.
I also believe in the adage “There is no unstoppable technique.” IMHO, this is why we must strive for constant improvement and due diligence, no matter how good or successful we seem to be at the moment.
Some people just like breaking rules.
I don’t much believe in rules, though I do tend toward the philosophy that there is a right season for everything.
I have a serious question for you, as relates to our banter. In reviewing the original thread videos, does it appear to you that the prevalent form of punching demonstrated there is optimized?
In the original clips, there were one or two guys who were striking pretty well on their feet. Unfortunately they were interspersed with many clips of other guys flailing so badly that the good ones were lost in the mix.
One of them hit a straight right while stepping backwards and he knocked the other guy on his butt.
A couple of them were OK at delivering knees from a clinch but that’s mainly because the opponent had no idea how to defend them. One was kneed about ten times in the head in the 2nd clip before he decided to lay down and get punched.
[B]Needs more emphasis on footwork. I saw almost no footwork, WC or otherwise. No lateral movement.
No clinching in the stand up. My opinion of stand up fighting, is that it should be something more than a “straight punches and front kicks” competition at a fixed distance.
[/B]
Obviously I wasn’t around either. I just hear battle stories from one or two the old time students. Can you share what you remember from the Felt Forum match? I never asked my SiFu about that one.
Could you offline your reply I don’t want to hijack this thread.
thanks … marcus
Originally posted by Phil Redmond
I usually came to the school late after work and stayed until 1 -2AM working out with Raul and his friend Baby (the Bak Mei that always hung around the school). I always heard about them later on and never wittnessed one.
If it weren’t for the old picture you sent me I wouldn’t have remembered about the Madison Square Garden Felt Forum fight where I was one of the corner people. That’s the only major thing I can think of right now. I do remember guys coming by wanting to know what the school had to offer though. Usually after a demo they were convinced.
Originally posted by kj
I have a serious question for you, as relates to our banter. In reviewing the original thread videos, does it appear to you that the prevalent form of punching demonstrated there is optimized?
wah, a serious question! there seems to be more elbows and knees in the clips. I think the overall goal in the videos are just to pound as many punches as possible, take the other fellow down as soon as they can. Optimized or not is not their concern.
Anyways, when I look at punches, I look at how much pounding vs thrusting. Thrusting uses more shoulder joint movements, forearm works like a forward pointing rod. I think boxers know more about this then many MA people. Elbow position is not the most critical factor, even when elbow is high and out it can still be sinking (of course it is harder to train, such as the hook punch in CK).
Sitting in front of the monitor and comment is cheap. It is admirable of those who put their clips online.
Truly they are going at it which is a good thing. I’m not about to criticize them…too easy to do but when u glove up and step onto the mat and ur stomach is churning up and u get a nice adrenaline dump-well, things change.
How Direct is Direct? Inquiring Minds Want to Know…
Originally posted by yylee
[B]
wah, a serious question! there seems to be more elbows and knees in the clips. I think the overall goal in the videos are just to pound as many punches as possible, take the other fellow down as soon as they can. Optimized or not is not their concern.
Anyways, when I look at punches, I look at how much pounding vs thrusting. Thrusting uses more shoulder joint movements, forearm works like a forward pointing rod. I think boxers know more about this then many MA people. Elbow position is not the most critical factor, even when elbow is high and out it can still be sinking (of course it is harder to train, such as the hook punch in CK).
Sitting in front of the monitor and comment is cheap. It is admirable of those who put their clips online.
not sure if that answers your question. [/B]
I believe it was a rhetorical question. You answered it from your perspective.
From my perspective, the punches were not optimized in structure which left them worthless and weak as exemplified by the fact that the recipients were well able to recieve them without apparent effect.
Every informed comment must be spelled out on this thread. KJ stands convicted of too much subtlety in her critique.
I wrote that one of the fighters was Tai Chi, well he was Ying Yee.
Anyway, here’s the link to the fight that took place in Macau in 1954 http://kwoon2.free.fr/NgvsChan.WMV
You’ll notice that the White Crane guy is using techniques from his system. I don’t remember seeing much of the linear techniques inherent in Ying Yee (Shing I), but I’ll look at it again.
Originally posted by Phil Redmond I wrote that one of the fighters was Tai Chi, well he was Ying Yee.
Anyway, here’s the link to the fight that took place in Macau in 1954 http://kwoon2.free.fr/NgvsChan.WMV
You’ll notice that the White Crane guy is using techniques from his system. I don’t remember seeing much of the linear techniques inherent in Ying Yee (Shing I), but I’ll look at it again.
Phil you’re correct before, the old fighter was Ng(Wu) Gong Yee(Wu TC). He was the son of Ng(Wu) Gan Chuan. Your Chen TC Sifu should know Ng’s history. The guy doing a form demo in the beginning was Dong Ying Jei, a student of the famous Yang Ching Fu(Yang style large frame).
The white crane style here is Tibetian White Crane, master Chen (the younger fighter) has boxing background also. I heard Chen is still alive, over 90.
