I am not trolling or trying to wind anybody up, I am just asking for advice.
I have just started training in WT about 6 weeks ago after years of looking for a style that suits me (work got in the way,so I have now changed jobs so I can train).
I really enjoy what I have done so far and I am serious about traing as often as I can, ie I might go to Germany to do a couple of intensive weeks next year, and I aim to train whenever there is a class local(hopefully 4/5 days a week minimum).
I have no problem with the teaching methods infact I find them enjoyable.
The problem!
I am 46 years old, although it will proberbly take me 4/5 years to make technichan level am I realistically likely to complete the system?, so should I stay with a style I am enjoying, or start another Wing Chun style due to where I live the alternative as far as I am aware would be Kamon .
I am honestly not trying to troll, I would be interested in your views especially any other “senior citizens”
Best Regards
Peter
Get out, look around, find one thing which suits you, and what you want, and go do it.
If you wanna fight- there are EBMAS guys in the UK, and some excellent ones in Germany, as well as some great fighters in the EWTO (Henrich, Thate). I’ve heard good things about Nino Bernardo and the WSL guys in London- also a fightin’ line. Dunno much about Kamon’s approach- but he seems to take it out and test it- a good thing IMHO. If you want the ‘art’ and are more technical, there are places within WT for you. If you want to learn the whole system in a short period of time, I’d look to another line.
Later,
Andrew
Welcome aboard! You have in my opinion just chosen one of the best standup martial art systems in the world, WT. WT is the biggest Wing Chun organisation in the globe. It has a very structured teaching approach and the students progress at a thorough pace. Your worrys about WT stem probably from reading many negative comments in some of the other threads about it, but you really have nothing to fear. WT is the most modern and tested Wing Chun lineage, and you have made a very good choice.
With regards to Kamon, that is a much smaller organisation run by a guy called Kevin Chan. Kevin Chan actually trains BJJ as well, and his wing chun is not direct Yip Man Lineage like WT. WT also has much more input from other styles due to its huge size, so Kamon is not as ‘evolved’ a style. With regards to student progression, WT DOES take a lot of time before you get to see all the forms. To get a 1st technichain (about 4-5 years), you will learn SNT and chun Kiu. To get a 2nd tech (another year), you need to have mastered biu Jee, though will definately see it before this time. Those are the empty hand forms, but you will learn apects of the other forms (such as knife form footwork) much earlier, as it is integrated into the teaching. Stick with it, and you will gain immense benfits.
thanks for the replies
I am not trying to criticise W.T. but it does get negative publicity! although that does not bother me, as I enjoy the classes the people and the instructor, it’s just at 46 I feel I would be unlikely to complete the system. As I live just a bit outside London I cannot make the traditional choices although years ago I trained at Victor Kans, good school just that work took me away to much.
Also Nino now lives in Ibiza and the train from Staines doesn’t have a direct connection (LOL).My main question is really do I train in a style which I wil not complete (I will move abroad in 14 years) or train somewhere I might complete the system but it might not be to much to my liking.
Yes I do want to fight I enjoy Lat so and there is also a Fighters Club I am hoping to attend
best regards
Peter
Depends what you mean by ‘complete’. A WT 2nd tech (learnt all the 3 hand forms) is probably more competent than many wing chun people who have quickly been taught all the WC forms. Also, you will defiantely see the wooden dummy and pole earlier. Just not ‘officially’ be gaded for it.
Good advice…
I would agree with Andrew’s comments below…
I would also think that if you are in the EWTO, then you are dealing with the KK approach to Leung Ting’s system which seems optimized on maximizing the EWTO’s revenue stream.
That translates to it taking you longer to progress in Wing Chun itself–IF that (pure Wing Chun) is what you are looking for.
Lat Sao after all is a program devleoped by KK, and is not Wing Chun in it’s original sense. The common path of development is progression through the first set, dan chi, lop sau, double arm poon sau, chi sao, Chum Kiu, Bil Jee, dummy, weapons…Rinse and Repeat.
More to the point, this is how Leung Ting himself learned, it is how he trained his own senior people and how they all trained Kieth Kernspetch himself. The question is, if there is a systems approach to optimizing the efficiency of training or “evolution” as some WT guys would state—then WHY would it take LONGER to train someone in the system completely? Should it not take less time?
Does it mean that if Leung Ting himself started the EWTO style today it would take him 20-30 years before he ever saw the knives or the pole? Logically that just doesn’t seem to make sense does it?
Perhaps some might see this as bashing, but it is not. It is simply asking for the underpinnings which demonstrate how and why Lato Sao etc. add to the individual students ability to perform Wing Chun at a higher skill level in a shorter amount of time.
If what you value are tangential programs like Lat Sao and Blitzdefense then, you’re only going to get that by staying in the EWTO.
If what you want is fighting and you are in the Kamon area, then I would really say to hook up with Kamon Wing Chun. Kevin can deliver the goods and has very practical experience based on his cross training in MMA via his expertise in BJJ.
A thing for you to consider is, why does or doesn’t Leung Ting himself and his senior students in Hong Kong at the mothership HQ teach “Lat Sao” or “Blitzdefense”?
Reading KK’s own book (On Single Combat) as I have, gives one an idea on this and on the economic model involved.
It is going to be about IF you connect to the teacher you have, IF you feel you are getting your money’s worth and IF you are enjoying what you are doing. Are you in it for the Wing Chun or are you in it for the “Wing Tsun”?
Only you can make that call.
Good luck.
Originally posted by AndrewS
[B]Get out, look around, find one thing which suits you, and what you want, and go do it.
If you wanna fight- there are EBMAS guys in the UK, and some excellent ones in Germany, as well as some great fighters in the EWTO (Henrich, Thate). I’ve heard good things about Nino Bernardo and the WSL guys in London- also a fightin’ line. Dunno much about Kamon’s approach- but he seems to take it out and test it- a good thing IMHO. If you want the ‘art’ and are more technical, there are places within WT for you. If you want to learn the whole system in a short period of time, I’d look to another line.
Later,
Andrew [/B]
Scuba,
you go a little far with the WT-slamming.
There are some very good folks in the EWTO- teachers, technicians, and fighters.
Lat sao is an set of drills. It teaches some very good things and is an interesting evolution of the art. It’s danger is that people wind up caught in the drill, missing its lessons and chasing it for itself (kinda like chi sao). Basically, lat sao allows for higher volume training of visual reflexes which get called upon mid-close, and teaches (in a very Darwinian manner) the 0/100 weighting we use, and begins to introduce its application. Additionally, lat sao winds up working much footwork and teaches one to make subtle adjustments in facing from tactile and visual stimuli. Personally, I get a lot out of it as a teaching exercise- it’s another way to attack the same basics, introducing some more variability into training.
Blitzdefense- weird subject. There’s definitely some cash stuff going on there. Even so, there are some merits to this training approach, though it’s kinda codifying common sense.
I tend to agree with you on the silliness of the extended time to finish the system. A 20 year full-time instructor of the art should be able to learn the pole and knives. That being said, material probably shouldn’t be learned before a degree of competence is achieved in prior material. I’ve seen enough guys from other lines with all the forms and weapons with scant basics that I don’t think they automatically make you good.
Later,
Andrew
Andrew: Hasn’t Thate recently left the EWTO? I might be wrong, but I think that I read that recently.
PQS,
I am not a WT guy. I am a Kung Fu guy. Your sincerity is in the right place - you like the teacher, the style, etc. Do not worry about your age. If you think about it, the more time you take to go and look for another style will prolong your training even longer. Starting at 46 is just the price to pay for waiting. Keep in mind the phrase “better late than never”. If you switched over to another Wing Chun camp, you still have ‘PQS’ training progress time, whatever that is. The other Wing Chun camps will not get you ahead or make you a “master” any faster. Sounds like the WT guys here are confident you will get a lot during that period of 4 to 5 years. So you have some decent level at 50 or 51. So what?
Discuss your needs to accelarate your progression with the Sifu. A show of dedication and commitment could put you at least on the shorter end of that 4 to 5 years.
Good Luck!
PQS,
Also note that “completing the system” is entirely up to you, not the style or the organization. The fact that you enjoy everything about where you are optimizes your chances for being successful.
Originally posted by PQS
it’s just at 46 I feel I would be unlikely to complete the system.
Peter,
Do you have any health issues other than your “old age”? If not, then I don’t see any problem at all. We have this one old guy in our class, and he’s hanging in OK. He’s a little slow, but what do you expect from a 46 year old? 
You’re not getting any younger, so just stay on the path. There is no better time than the present.
Cheers,
Matrix
Cheers Guy’s
and thanx for your replies.
I think I will stick with WT because I enjoy the training the instructor is very good at conveying the skills, it’s just because of work commitments in the past I have not been able to train for more than a couple of months here or there, good schools but work moved me on.
I don’t want to spend 3 years then realise it’s not for me, then move to another school , I am running out of time to learn a style that I want to continue for the rest of my life, I amreasonably fit and hopefully I can train for another 10 years then realsitically (excuse spelling it’s 2 in the morning) then it’s consolodating what I have learned, it just seems it’s a long time in the wt way is my only doubt
.
thanx for your replies
I’ll let you know how I get on
regards
Peter
20 years training
Just a little note from a EWTO member
I hear this 20 years to learn the whole system thing a lot, not sure where it comes from really. Sure theres a lot of guys been training 20 years and still not got the higher (above 5 tech) grades, but since the pole and knives are only taught one-to-one I would think most of them know the whole system anyway. Course knowing all the material does not complete the system, how can you complete a system when your ability in chi sao can improve with age no matter how old you are ? Certainly I have been taught things way above my grade , even by Kernspecht, because they were considered useful and had been explained in a way I could apply. I have seen all the empty forms and the dummy (no facing the wall as was on one thread!) and with my 5 years training the dummy form would be largely meaningless to me in terms of application. I like to be able to apply the knowledge I do have rather than collecting forms I can’t use. As for other lineages going faster, yeah I have heard that as well, but without knowing for myself how well they can apply it I would wonder how good it is for them. End of the day I stay for the classes atmosphere and I always feel I am improving, if the class gives you that then why leave ?
Adrian thans for your reply, I think I am going to stick with WT as it’s proberbly to late at my age to change again I’m just going to have to attend as many classes as I can plus seminars etc
Where abouts in Surrey are you? as I am just outside that area and I 'm looking for somewhere to train on a Tuesday.
Regards
Peter
PQS – what’s the rush? 46 isn’t old by any standard. if you like the stuff and think it works for you, stick with it. if you don’t, then ask around, as we have about 8 zillion brits on this forum.
anyhoo, don’t be in such a huge rush to complete the system when you’re just starting out. focusing too much on the end product makes the rest of the journey.
and, to quote a former wc student, “don’t concentrate on the finger, or you wiw miss aww the heavenry grory.”
46 is not old by any means. Keith Kernspecht, the head of the EWTO only started WT when he was in his 30’s, so do not worry about age. That is long enough to achieve a high grade in WT and become very competent. Train at least 2-3 times a week and you will make good progress.
UF
I’m training 3 times a week at the moment and am trying to find a 4th class in my area, I’m going to start having private lessons a couple of times a month and also go to Fight Club when it’s on so hopefully the more I put into it the more I get out of it.
regards
Peter
Tuesdays !
Hi PQS
I train in Redhill on a tuesday, Crawley on a monday and some thursdays in east grinstead. Theres clubs throughout surrey so its worth checking the wtdefence.com classes list for ones nearby
Regards
Adrian
Hi Adrian Redhill is quite a way from Staines I train at Kingston Monday, Wimbledon Wednesday, and Chessington on Thursday, I know there is a class in Windsor on a Tuesday but I get the impression the instructor does not want any more students there is also a class in Sutton but I feel that my be a long journey (I have no car just a scooter) I don’t get home from Wimbledon til past 12 and to many late nights and I can’t perform at work (note the posts on here today
regards
Peter
Originally posted by PQS
UF
I’m training 3 times a week at the moment and am trying to find a 4th class in my area, I’m going to start having private lessons a couple of times a month and also go to Fight Club when it’s on so hopefully the more I put into it the more I get out of it.
regards
Peter
I’d say 3 times a week is enough for standard classes. If you get some privates in maybe once a month then your standard will improve dramatically.
I personally train twice a week most weeks and occasionally a private. Each class is 2 1/2 hours long so I think that is enough. I am currently at University so I cannot put as much time into WT as I would like, but you will definately make decent progress going 3 times a week.