What's the deal with WT?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Recently I visited a WT (Leung Ting lineage, obviously) school, or rather “center”, in my hometown Copenhagen. The only WC/WT in my country is in that school/lineage. I visited because I have always been interested in WC, but I became more and more dissapointed when I entered the place.
It was constructed like some center/hangoutplace, and had other than the traininghall itself, a fitness-center, a lockerroom, a cafe (with a bar, where a waitress in a “WT” t-shirt served drinks and handed out the keys to the lockerroom if you payed ). I thought to myself “how commercialised is this place?”, as I watched many many people walk around with the exact same clothes with the “WT” emblem. The class too was a dissapointment, because he told us visitors all the time that “WT is superior to everything” and “WT is so fantastic this and that”(and I have talked to other WT practicioners, and they seemed like they had been indoctrinated with the fantasticness of the style) . And then he told about the "WT-Qigong(which of course has a little “TM” mark in the logo) which was the “WT-version of Taiji” which I of course knew right away was BS.
I also noticed how they sold posters & books & mugs etc with WT stuff on them.

Now when my babbling is over… I want to know: Is this really how WT/WC has evolved to? From being a relatively little-known KF style in southern China to being a highly commercialised money-making machine with a “TM” mark in their logo?

Because if that is the case, I don’t wanna have anything to do with Wing Chun again. ever.

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Chen Zen- no comment on the place that you visited.

You are confusing Wt with Wc—
WC has different lineages.
WT- though trademarked as WT is pronounce the same and is Leung Ting and Kerspecht’s organization.
There are differences in approaches to wing chun.

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Being that the school you visited is so commercialized, you are best to avoid training there! I can’t believe they had the nerve to say that WT was the best! I mean coming from a WT school? The nerve!

Can you also possibly imagine the type of horrible people who would want to make a living out of teaching a martial art they enjoy? Horrible, absolutely horrible…

They should just stick to a regular 9-5 job at some office and be happy like all the rest of us. Those animals!

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Yuanfen: I know the difference between WC & WT, and that the commercialization is worse in WT, but I would like to know if it’s the case in all lineages of WC, not regarding the spelling.

Datou: I don’t know what your deal is, you’re both giving me an advise, and being sarcastic, so I don’t know what to think of you.

More help, please?:frowning:

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Originally posted by chen zhen
… but I would like to know if it’s the case in all lineages of WC …

Naturally not. Schools, groups, practitioners. and respective motivations vary widely just as people everywhere do. We just don’t hear as much about all the small schools, including the many basement, garage and park groups who practice for reasons of passion or pragmatism. I have a theory that the smaller and relatively unknown groups actually make up the larger portion of the Wing Chun population around the world.

Even within a large and formal organization as WT, people cannot all be cut from the same cloth. Those kinds of things are obviously more important to some people than to others. There are some very decent folks from that organization even here on this list, and who come to share of themselves rather than peddle wares.

I too tend to shy away from the sort of ambiance you described, but it pays to keep an open mind about individuals rather than paint them all the same, especially on account of something as superficial as decor or conveniences. Even in our small group, where we on the other end of the spectrum as regards formalities and commercialism, many practitioners enjoy wearing a tee shirt with our logo on it from time to time. Small groups or large, demonstrations of affinity and pride are natural.

Beyond concerns of tee shirts, logos, beverage bars, and other trappings, Wing Chun is well worth the trouble of seeking out someone to learn from who rings with you.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
6

if possible check out some more schools.you said there arent any others in you area so if you really want to practice wing chun you may have to travel a little bit.just like many things wt has some really good people and some awful folks doing it.

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chen zhen

Here is a Wing Chun school in Denmark check it out
http://www.wingchun.dk/dwca/skoler/denmark_uk.htm

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Re: What’s the deal with WT?

Originally posted by chen zhen
Because if that is the case, I don’t wanna have anything to do with Wing Chun again. ever.

You are absolutely right to think that way.

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Chen Zen-

Even if “something is rotten in Denmark”(Shakespeare in Hamlet)-
its a big wide world. Lots of variance in schools, instructors,
knowledge of the art and other things.

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Chen Zen,

You know, I think there is nothing wrong with WT. Honest.

See, in this world, people doing different things and expect different things. But, there is reality.

To run a school, one needs to make money. Otherwise, the school will not exist. Certainly, some will like to run a smaller group and the expectation is different.

So, there are WC school which has to make money to run. There are WC sifu who will teach without taking a cents. There are in between.

NOw, if a school, similar to a university, run in a very business way, one pays and they provide one with the knowledge. Then, there is nothing wrong with that. It is a business. We can’t expect others to be a great martial hero with integrity. We just Can’t. We might expect ourself to live in integrity. But, how many percent of the martial artists are basically drive by money or fame?

Certainly, it will be great to have a saint like sifu. But, in reality, what is the propotion?

IMHO, if you think the school you visit offer the art you want and think it is worthed. Pay and get it. If not then walk away. Looking for a saint type and integrity and high moral place. one needs to find it somewhere else. This is reality. Why complain?

You post —
"Because if that is the case, I don’t wanna have anything to do with Wing Chun again. ever. "

See, honestly, no one owe you anything. Even the school you visit, you go in there at will. so, you can make the above comment. But, what is that good?

I know, I know, Joy, KJ, Rene,… must think I am going nuts by commenting the above. :D.

But, nah, that is the reality of life. Some will use WCK to make money. It is similar to use Music to make money. Certainly, for a real artist it is sacret. But then how many artist die in povety, and the art lost?

Certainly, with a certain standard or reference I will agree with Chen Zen. But then, who sets the standard? if I use my own. Then that is my Ego.

Money is not dirty. Money doesn’t mean low moral. Hi MOral doesn’t mean high quality. It is not a black and white world isn’t it? But, should we be honest or should we be hipocrate to ourself and to the people around?

You know, sometimes, I rather, everything open on the table. you pay this must you got this much. if everyone agree then deal, no then no deal. At least, there is no invisible string attach.

Saying that, certainly, in this world, there are poeple similar to Mother Teresa, certainly they exist. and the reason we all respect her highly because it is so rare.

Real honest, Real Integrity, Real Friendship, Real compassionate, they are real rare. The rest of us, are just double standard most of the time. May be not you but I have to admit I am until I reach Mother Teresa’s level.

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Replies to Hendrik

To run a school, one needs to make money. Otherwise, the school will not exist. Certainly, some will like to run a smaller group and the expectation is different.

((True)

So, there are WC school which has to make money to run. There are WC sifu who will teach without taking a cents. There are in between.
((True))

NOw, if a school, similar to a university, run in a very business way, one pays and they provide one with the knowledge. Then, there is nothing wrong with that.
((True))

Certainly, it will be great to have a saint like sifu. But, in reality, what is the propotion?

(I prefer some sinners to saints- dont leave me with Joan of Arc.Please))

IMHO, if you think the school you visit offer the art you want and think it is worthed. Pay and get it. If not then walk away.

((True))

I know, I know, Joy, KJ, Rene,… must think I am going nuts by commenting the above. .

((No nays from this end!!!))

You know, sometimes, I rather, everything open on the table. you pay this must you got this much. if everyone agree then deal, no then no deal. At least, there is no invisible string attach.

((Nota bad idea..but no dogmatic about either. Gump and the box of chocolates))

Saying that, certainly, in this world, there are poeple similar to Mother Teresa, certainly they exist. and the reason we all respect her highly because it is so rare.

((Wait a minute. met the lady- she reported to an ex teacher of mine who became a Cardinal. I hope that they are having a good time together.She had an agenda— anti abortion…conservative Catholicism. I wouldnt wanta statute for bird ****- but they do need a place dont they. But pleez- no pigeons-theirs is the worst. One can admire a hawk or an eagle–has to be a high statute- thank you))))

Real honest, Real Integrity, Real Friendship, Real compassionate, they are real rare. The rest of us, are just double standard most of the time. May be not you but I have to admit I am until I reach Mother Teresa’s level.

( No thanks I am not counting on spending etrnity with Mother Teresa or Billy Graham… the foot of a shade tree at Sarnath would be ok. I wouldnt go to Copenhagen for good tobacco either. One good Cuban cigar, a Singha beer, Ava Gardner , a good collection of the world’s best poetry- undera large banyan tree- if promised I will teach you wing chun. Honest injun- you can trust me- now and then at least.))

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Re: Replies to Hendrik

Hey Joy,

Don’t you know by now that I am a libra (sp) but pretend to be conservative… hahaaha

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Hendrik-

Hey- I am a Virgo and a Rooster-
no wonder I sound “definitive”
and not particularly popular-
which is ok..
kismet/destiny/yuanfen!!

PS. the more conservative-really an artist son is a libra… the crazy one is a snake!! And he invented Chaos. Late spouse wasa Gemini/ox. Challenging.

Number one son- not into sports-- but from what judo he learned- diffucult to throw him.
Number 2 son learned some wing chun and some boxing(same gym where Tyson used to work out)- can handle himself if he doesnt bite off more than he can chew. The nephew I raised - wing chun- football and wretling… was number one seeded heavyweight high school grappler in oklahoma… and in football his job with the Okmulgee Tigers was to sit on the chest of the quarterback from the henryetta Mudhens- a guy who is known as troy Aikman of the Dallas Cowboys.

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Originally posted by Phenix
I know, I know, Joy, KJ, Rene,… must think I am going nuts by commenting the above. :D.

If so, then you are in good company. :wink: Very good post.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
15

Thanks for all the good responses. It was a little more comforting.:slight_smile:

But I’d like to make a few more comments on the place… The matter with the clothes, it was meant that you have to wear clothes in SPECIFIC colours, and they said it was best if all had the exact same colours on (I know many styles have students the same clothes on, like gi’s, but it was weird rules they had there.) Most of the students (students flocked around the place. VERY popular place) looked buff, and most would hit the weight-training center after orbefore class. When I watched the students, they did’nt look like they understood the WC principles, as they mostly used muscular force in their techniques.
Another thing is the sash/levels you had to get to be able to train on a higher level. it was constructed the way that you had to attend seminars each month,(which was VERY pricy) to get to the next level, and there was A LOT of levels. I also found that they began to teach chi-sao after the highest levels was attained (and that is after, like 2-3 years, maybe.:eek: is that normal?!)

There’s much more points of critique, but I’ll point them out later.
here’s a link to the school (in danish, sorry)
www.dewto.dk

FIREHAWK: Yes, I know that school. That’s the other WC organisation in Denmark, Samuel Kwok lineage. I visited that school a couple of times, it was a year ago or something. They were’nt that great, the students where jerks, and the teacher seemed a tad too young to be a shifu.(and was eating a big meal of fastfood right before class:eek: )

once again, thanks for the great responses. “train hard”!:slight_smile:

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btw, feedback from jesper & hendrik would be great, they’re danish WT students.:slight_smile:

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Originally posted by chen zhen
… students flocked around the place. VERY popular place…

Then it seems a lot of people are getting what they want.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
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I mean, it’s so popular that the level of the training has been lowered considerably.

edit: imo, that is.

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Chen zhen;

The students search for a good teacher and then learning is an important part of a good kung fu journey. IMO you smile and ignore the rest.

Folks who settle for advertisements keep entire economies going.
Some dips when some folks realize— more selling and less production can be a problem. But then we can go global- after all WT has reached Copengahegen. Does the mermaid blush?

Remember P.T Barnum’s observation - a sucker is born every minute. And to think that I havent gone to Barnum and Bailey in many a year. Where is Emmet Kelley- when we need him?
Bring in the clowns.

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I reckon that WT school is up themselves, claiming to be the best, and convincing the students and telling them that the school is the best? Ha! People are intelligent enough to make their own decisions to whether or not a school is good or not. And all that commercialisation doesnt seem too good either, just trying in increase their students and money, and probably wihtout care to the actual quality of the students they produce.