what to look for in a school?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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hello, this is my first post on this forum!

i have wanted to learn wing chun for quite a while now, and am finally at a point in my life where i have some extra time and money to do so! i now live in richmond, virginia, and recently observed the moy yat ving tsun school and a local college’s lo man kam wing chun club.

the ving tsun school seemed pretty formal… the students held the teacher in with the highest respect, and they seemed to train quite intensely… they did sticky hands most of the time… the teacher spoke of the authenticity of the lineage and how the methods had been passed down for generations… so it sounds like they really know their stuff… however, they require a contract and i did not particularly want to get locked into one…

i really enjoyed the atmosphere of the college wing chun club-- the teacher was very laid back and the students seemed to be enthusiastic and skilled… as a woman, i could also appreciate that there were several women in the class and that they were treated as equals by both the teacher and their peers… there was a lot of variety-- in addition to sticky hands exercise, they also did a lot of other drills that looked like brief sparring engagements… on the downside, perhaps the class was a little too laid back, it was taught in a park, and the tuition is very low ($30/month) compared to most martial arts classes in the area, the students were wearing jeans and did not even have a “school t-shirt” or other identifying markers… even though the teacher seems to really know what he is talking about, i am wondering if he does not value his instruction? in fact, the students joked with him and did not treat him with the same level of respect as the folks at the ving tsun school did to their teacher… after the class, when i approached the teacher to ask about class details, i inquired about the “authenticity” of his “lineage,” since that seemed to be highly valued at the ving tsun school… he seemed to be very nonchalant, saying that the purity of lineage is not as important as one’s ability to use the system! but aren’t the authentic methods more tested, proven and effective?

so to my future senior brothers and sisters, what do you think? while i preferred the atmosphere of the wing chun class, i do not want to fall in the trap of liking the “feel” of a class, but end up learning something totally useless. how important is lineage? how important is formality? would you feel uncertain about a class that was 2-3x cheaper than other classes in the area? does anyone have personal experience with these schools? (http://www.wingchun-sf.com, http://www.moyyat.net)

thank you in advance for your input and guidance!

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Find out more about both instructors. “Good” lineage is no guarantee of teaching skills.Both lineages are known.

A Bay area Lo Man Kam teacher moved east… list name aelward?
Is it him?? He is a good instructor and has tried out things outside of his lineage. If it is not him- I would respect his recommendation.

Tom Kagan on this list or Victor may have first hand knowledge of the other guy’s knowledge and teaching ability. Asa general principle, I would balk at contracts… unless its someone like Cus DAmato teaching someone boxing- or similar equivalencies in other arts.
Beginners need elbow room to make up their minds. The search for a good kung fu teacher is serious business- should not be taken lightly or done hastily..

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Yeah, it was Aelward.

Mail him. I think I have his PM if you can’t find it on here, since he doesn’t seem to post any more. In my dealings with him in the past he’s been very reasonable, approachable and informative, and it was through him that I met another guy who trains over here, and has also been a very valuable training partner regularly for three years now. My partner is also very laid back, maybe it’s a product of Lo Man Kam’s schools, I don’t know, but what impressed me, after several years dedicated to several MA and a couple of wing chun lineages was his hands… very good kung fu.

Again, I don’t know if that was just this guy, or Lo Man Kam’s school in general, but if I can I want to pop over to Taiwan some time to find out. I like his style.

As for Leung Ting’s org; you’ll hear good and bad of course… a couple of my regular training partners have been from that lineage and they’ve had reasonable hands… but a little stiffer. Could be the people, as opposed to the line. I’ve also met a LT org’s sifu who really did want that sifu respect whether he’d earned it or not… cocky basically. Again, this is maybe just my exp, and I’m not saying it’s a school thing, but the respect he wanted was out of proportion to his skill level!

I do know that LT’s org is very very structured (for good or for bad), very very dogmatic and quite expensive, with many many gradings and a very long learning curve, whereas Lo Man Kam’s lineage seem to have less by way of gradings and more along the traditional lines of you get shown the next bit when you’re good enough. And no t-shirts or uniforms (as was standard for a lot of CMA schools).

I’m just speaking from my exp, of course, you should wait and see what members of these lineages have to say, but do remember, although I only have limited exp with only a few people from these lineages, I’m also therefore more impartial!!!

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Re: what to look for in a school?

Originally posted by tallazngrrrl
[B] but aren’t the authentic methods more tested, proven and effective?

thank you in advance for your input and guidance! [/B]

Every Wing Chun lineage thinks they are the most authentic and effective lineage. Yip Man had lots of students who all have their own ways to teach. It’s likely that during your Wing Chun career you will learn stuff from different lineages anyway. The University club sounds fine to me. Maybe bring a martial arts friend with you and view the classes again and then talk it over. Also check out other martial arts.

Ray

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hello.im rather new [ish] to wing chun myself and have had varied luck with schools.my advice is this.

1,stick with the college class.the tend to be happier places than the grim run of the mill toughguy clubs.plus,youll mix with university students and not just ma’s and thus will have a more rounded experience.

2,many [many] wing chun folk are constipated my lineage the past and what they can/cant use their wc against [usually,with grim endless banter,BJJ].so try and join one other ma class to round things out just in case you wish to drop wc but not a martial art.

3,this website is like life,you’ll meet all sorts.some good,some annoying,and some who clearly either dont do much wc or are posting from a correctional building.ask a question,read the answers,then find out how you feel.

wc is mean and fast and less flashy than other ma’s and some of the gals ive seen do this style were wicked!!

Russ.

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Don’t judge a book by its cover.

Regards,

  • kj
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The unfortunate truth is that a beginner (regardless of how long they’ve been “in WCK”) will not have the discernment to judge the good from the bad, as discernment comes with sophistication. There are three basic things you should look for in a school, however – first, that the instructor is part of a legitimate provable lineage going back to the Red Boat Opera (this shows that at the very least s/he had access to the information); second, that there is sparring/fighting as part of the training (because you can only become a better fighter by fighting); and third, that you are comfortable with the “vibe” or attitude of the school (that it is a “good fit” for you).

Above all, go into your training with a critical, even skeptical, eye; don’t accept anything because you’ve been told it, require proof of any claims; and continually look to results – is your fighting skill actually improving from your training?

Good luck,

Terence

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Originally posted by kj
[B]Don’t judge a book by its cover.

Regards,

  • kj [/B]
    Course that’s true to a good extent, but that’s why we have book reviews… to save sending a lot of money on the book, a lot of time reading it, and then finding out it’s no good!
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I would go to the college club.
An instructor who encourages students to treat them with deference is a very bad sign.
Firstly it’s just plain offensive when you’re paying the guy, secondly it doesnt lead to a good open minded training environment.
I feel it stems from a lack of real confidence from the instructor in their abilities.
These are the places that are more likely to stick you for money for uniforms, special shoes, gradings etc etc. All of no value.

Another thing to bear in mind is that the instructor is only part of the equation, a very important one no doubt but how much you enjoy the class is important too.
You cant learn anything from an instructor if you dont enjoy the class and stop turning up.

Just my humble opinion based on personal experience.

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Originally posted by t_niehoff
[B]Above all, go into your training with a critical, even skeptical, eye; don’t accept anything because you’ve been told it, require proof of any claims; and continually look to results – is your fighting skill actually improving from your training?

Good luck,

Terence [/B]

Be careful though, try not to question everything. There is a time to ask and question everything, and a time to just do what you are told. There are many things that you will not understand till later that you are just to do now.

Being respectful and paying attention are qualities you should have as a good student, and a good teacher should give to you.

In my opinion, a good teacher should also be calm and have a relaxed feeling that flows from him :slight_smile: He should be patient as well as communicate what he wants you to do clearly. This is an important quality in a teacher, and something I value in mine.

Wish you luck, and do not slack on practicing, only you can make you better! :smiley:

Edit: go see a class and talk with some students first also.

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I’ve had experience with John Kang and the Moy Yat school. Both are good, they are just different. Join the one that is more enjoyable to you. The price difference is because one is a school and one is a group in a park.

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simple math

contracts = bad , money on the mind , not people , rambling about lineage and the logo and the shirt and the secret hand shake , is all fluff , skill is skill , talking and cloths don’t equal skill
look for skill , bring in some one you know that can fight have them test the teacher [ friendly :slight_smile: ] unless you have some skill yourself and can test the teacher
don’t fall for pre arranged demo’s
don’t fall for the ‘’ yes sifu stepford wives ‘’ there stuck in contracts and are vested so the ‘’ must believe ‘’

try to evaluate the skill of both guys

me i would go with the laid back that way you feel comfortable asking questions or leaving if you don’t like it

nothing lost

beware the marketing machine
:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

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tallazngrrrl,

I’m going to hazzard a guess and say the teacher at the VingTsun school is named either Marcus, Stewart, or Barry. I’ve only met Marcus briefly, though I suppose I may have met Stewart and Barry and not remember.

I’ll also hazzard a guess that the name of the college club’s teacher is John Kang. I haven’t met him.

It is important to note that Marcus, Stewart, and Barry are not students of Moy Yat. They are students of Anthony Dandridge, one of my SiHings. If memory serves, Anthony lives in the apartment above Stewart’s school. (If you hear yelling and screaming from people playing Tekken coming down from the floor above, that’s Stewart’s place. :smiley: )

I will state emphatically that, in the absence of good traditions, bad traditions will grow to fill the void. While Anthony’s students can get a little anal about the “tradition” stuff, I can’t say whether that would be a problem. That is something for you to decide alone.

My personal preference is to make it natural - like it was effortless and casual. That is how I treated my Sifu. From my observations, nearly all of my SiHings who I considered truly close to Moy Yat treated the relationship similarly - including Anthony.

NOTE: Ya’ just gotta love irony: based soley on what you describe in your post, my relationship with Moy Yat appears, on the surface, closer to your depiction of the college Wing Chun club. Perhaps you missed something beyond what you describe. Then again, perhaps not. :D:D:D:D

If there is anything I can help you with, feel free to contact me privately.

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Agree with Ernie EXCEPT for

“bring in some one you know that can fight have them test the teacher [ friendly ]”.

I dont knpw the other fellow… but John Kang is a good guy and a conscientious teacher- I have met him.

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Originally posted by Vajramusti
[B]Agree with Ernie EXCEPT for

“bring in some one you know that can fight have them test the teacher [ friendly ]”.

I dont knpw the other fellow… but John Kang is a good guy and a conscientious teacher- I have met him. [/B]

why Joy
i tested Gary and brought my friend robert to check him out as well

no harm , besides me getting dropped a few times :smiley:

gary enjoys a chance to express himself

i’m not into wasting time so if i am going to invest my time in something i’ll take it for a test drive or have some one i trust give me there 2 cents

why would any skilled wing chun person have a problem with a friendly test

i don’t understand

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Originally posted by Ernie
[B]… why would any skilled wing chun person have a problem with a friendly test

i don’t understand [/B]

I agree. None would, or at least should. But the sword of people living in the KungFu fantasy world cuts both ways.

The number of people who come through the door for a true “friendly test” are about as few and far between as the number of Sifus who wouldn’t have a problem with a true “friendly test”. Thus, it is perfectly understandable if a particular school, even if they have quality teaching, chooses to deal with such “friendly testers” quite dismissively and/or arbitrarily.

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Originally posted by Tom Kagan
[B]I agree. None would, or at least should. But the sword of people living in the KungFu fantasy world cuts both ways.

The number of people who come through the door for a true “friendly test” are about as few and far between as the number of Sifus who wouldn’t have a problem with a true “friendly test”. Thus, it is perfectly understandable if a particular school, even if they have quality teaching, chooses to deal with such “friendly testers” quite dismissively and/or arbitrarily. [/B]

again wouldn’t really matter if the teacher is good :confused:

i mean really how many times does someone from another style come to check out a school this is common
and that person will require some proof

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tallazngrrrl

Your post is honest and well deserving of opinions. I feel that you should determine what your goals are for your martial arts training first and then make your decision based on this. The Moy Yat organization, of which I am part, balances many aspects of Kung Fu, not just focusing on fighting ability. We believe that the Kung Fu is as great or as bad as the individual wants to be. The Kung Fu is there to be learned, not there to be taught. With the Moy Yat organization, like others, you have the potential to be exposed to many well respected resources beyond just your Sifu, which extends to many parts of the country and the world.

Although many of us do not believe in the contract theory, provision of a building to train and equipment does not come from easily from promises. Also, a Sifu is really teaching their experiences. This teaching takes time away from their family and other things important in life. If you think this should be free, then you get what you pay for.

Many people see the training only through the eyes of the student. From a school owners point of view, there has to be some balance. In your case, you should consider the details of the contract because contracts become a “bad” thing mainly if the school seeks to penalize for financial gain only or has hidden penalities. Or if there is pressure for you to sign up. Realistically, why should a school commit to providing a quality environment and instruction while there is no commitment by the student? There should be some balance.

The College campus instructor may have the skill, but keep in mind that their overhead costs are much much less. I would think a similar comparison could be made for any of the popular lineages when compared to a local college group. Any larger organization will have more components to it.

How important is lineage? Lineage is only traceability, which serves as some point of reference. This does not “authenticate” any instructor over another. However, the term lineage may take on a greater meaning if you replace it with the word “family”.

So as you decide, it will come down to which one fits your goals.

Good luck with your Kung Fu!

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Maybe this might help as well:

http://vtstudiopa.moyyat.com/FAQ.htm

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Originally posted by Ernie
[B]again wouldn’t really matter if the teacher is good :confused:

i mean really how many times does someone from another style come to check out a school this is common
and that person will require some proof [/B]

You make a valid point.

But proof can come in other packages besides a KO.

Frankly, most that I have met who joined a school simply because the teacher whooped them in a “friendly test” have been nothing but annoying pains in the butt and completely disruptive to a class trying to improve their skills. I have seen the reverberations of such “bone eating dragons” extend far beyond the time spent under a particular teacher’s tutelege. (I suspect Joy has, too.)

Of course, some weren’t like that. Those that weren’t were very nice, humble people who cared a lot about the betterment of their classmates, their teacher (!), and themselves. They shared freely and learned freely. They cared about performance, they cared about manner, they cared about people. This group is the minority (and of which you project the persona, from my perspective - on occasion. :wink: But I have had the luxury of observing the manner of your posts here for some time).

Most, however, are the “Image” seekers. There are really only two types of martial artists. Those that are concerned with “performance” and those that are concerned with “image.” Image is pervasive in society and, thus, is always within a MoKwoon to some extent.

So how can you sort the different groups? Because you can still open a can’o’whoopas on them at a single point in time? Perhaps. But it doesn’t have to be that way; that’s just your way. :smiley:

Still, another way to tell the difference is a person more concerned with performance shares and interacts, whereas a person more concerned with image tries to show you how “good” they are and does not interact. They just take.

I think you already have a good idea as to how to tell the difference. :slight_smile: You have your way of dealing with that situation, Joy has his, I have mine.

On a minor note, I know of one school which used to be in NYC which, if a prospective student asked for “proof,” everyone would immediately jump that person and beat the living h%ll out of them. Then, they’d take their wallet, dump them in an alley and leave them for dead. I guess that was their way of proving their point. :smiley: :smiley: