Wing chun utilises elbow down for reasons we all understand. Elbow down is vulnerable to certain strategies which wing chun works a lot, as well as some that wing chun doesn’t work. Wing chun also works things that are not dependent on elbow down.
The problem is that virtually nobody punches elbow down in real life. How much of what is developed in wing chun is based on the assumption that the elbow will be down? How much is transferable to reality? Discuss.
IMHO,
Elbow down in Wck has become a dogma without meaning and stagnation .
Elbow down is a dynamic transient action for force flow channeling and or power generation. It generate a different type of force flow. It is useful in the real life but one needs to know how to use it properly.
Elbow down transient is the moment when one hammer the nail in. But one never hold hammer down continuous static forever.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1239275]Wing chun utilises elbow down for reasons we all understand. Elbow down is vulnerable to certain strategies which wing chun works a lot, as well as some that wing chun doesn’t work. Wing chun also works things that are not dependent on elbow down.
The problem is that virtually nobody punches elbow down in real life. How much of what is developed in wing chun is based on the assumption that the elbow will be down? How much is transferable to reality? Discuss.[/QUOTE]
Not sure I’m fully getting your point, but my thoughts on elbows down…
It is unnatural to keep the elbow down. It goes against the natural human condition, especially when under pressure.
We spend most of our daily lives with our elbows out
This is why we train VT the way we do, is it not? We train to beat nature. To do our stuff with VT structure, and gain its benefits.
In our school we develop the ability to do this under increasing stress, until we can maintain these good structures even under heavy sparring.
This for us is known as being combat proficient in VT.
[QUOTE=T_Ray;1239285]Not sure I’m fully getting your point, but my thoughts on elbows down…
It is unnatural to keep the elbow down. It goes against the natural human condition, especially when under pressure.
We spend most of our daily lives with our elbows out
This is why we train VT the way we do, is it not? We train to beat nature. To do our stuff with VT structure, and gain its benefits.
In our school we develop the ability to do this under increasing stress, until we can maintain these good structures even under heavy sparring.
This for us is known as being combat proficient in VT.[/QUOTE]
Very true and I agree on the theory. But working only against other elbow down people trains to expect that does it not? Surely this can lead to abstractions, i.e. chasing hands. Does this bubble style training have any impact on using wing chun in reality?
Kyokushin fighters train against body punching mostly. Does this have any impact on the usability of their style in reality where everyone punches to the face?
Here is an example of what I mean, and I don’t intend to attach specific people or groups because almost everyone is guilty of this to some extent. This is just a good example I found on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF9Ivw_AOaQ
How much of this is training elbow down structural principles that can (with work) apply universally? How much is training specific responses to what look like fairly naive elbow down punching attacks? How many of these would work against more typical punches?
guy b, I’m getting playback error on that link.
Yes, In many ways we drill and train with partners who also are training their good structure. We train these structures because they offer superior strength, as well as better offensive and defensive positions, and possibilities, etc etc.
If we can work our stuff successfully with (against) these stronger and better structures, then perhaps against anything structurally and positionally weaker allows us to be more effective?
A common error in understanding vt is the lack of angling footwork. Movement with striking / parrying skills, because of this gap a lot of guessing and subjective ideas are added for not knowing the footwork and tactical ideas that make elbows very functional to vt. Er awesome vt. ; )
The acute angles of vt striking/ parrying elbows allow " mindless interceptions " when coupled with certain technical ideas that are BASICS, good basic knowledge.
As a coach I can see lack of correct footwork and corresponding movement. A lot of vt students try to touch arms for pressure while trying to stand still or pivot the arm out of the way. This might work against someone who also plays the same error, but can be easily shown for its counters from random attacking swings to chasing arms… Not rocket science.
[QUOTE=T_Ray;1239285]Not sure I’m fully getting your point, but my thoughts on elbows down…
It is unnatural to keep the elbow down. It goes against the natural human condition, especially when under pressure.
We spend most of our daily lives with our elbows out
This is why we train VT the way we do, is it not? We train to beat nature. To do our stuff with VT structure, and gain its benefits.
In our school we develop the ability to do this under increasing stress, until we can maintain these good structures even under heavy sparring.
This for us is known as being combat proficient in VT.[/QUOTE]
I think guyb had an insightful post.
Keeping the elbow down is not unnatural at all I do not know where you get this. It just depends on what you are doing that makes it natural or not. I do not see wing chun as trying to overcome our nature. That is a losing proposition. I see wing chun as training us to use our natural reactions that are tweaked and developed to be better so we are improving on our nature not trying to overcome it.
I think the problem guyb mentions is that we practice dealing with problems our opponent or training partners give us and that often the only problems we see and get practice with involve dealing with other wing chun people who keep their elbows down and in. We do not get practice dealing with people giving us other more common problems.
[QUOTE=tc101;1239330]I think guyb had an insightful post.
Keeping the elbow down is not unnatural at all I do not know where you get this. It just depends on what you are doing that makes it natural or not. I do not see wing chun as trying to overcome our nature. That is a losing proposition. I see wing chun as training us to use our natural reactions that are tweaked and developed to be better so we are improving on our nature not trying to overcome it.
I think the problem guyb mentions is that we practice dealing with problems our opponent or training partners give us and that often the only problems we see and get practice with involve dealing with other wing chun people who keep their elbows down and in. We do not get practice dealing with people giving us other more common problems.[/QUOTE]
Well, first there’s elbows down, and elbows correctly down and in centre, but thats another thing. ( but even more unnatural ).
Yes of course VT is against our natural tendencies.
It is natural when under attack to flinch raise arms rotate shoulders, and back off. To panic and be irrational.
In VT we train specific ideas to overcome these natural behaviours.
Look down at your feet… Charlie Chaplin right? Heels in toes out? This is our normal natural stance. Not good for fighting.
To have proper VT line of force, we train the opposite with ygkym.
This is what I mean by natural/unnatural.
Where did I get this you ask?..
From my teacher, PB, who got it from his teacher, who in turn got it from his teacher 
[QUOTE=guy b.;1239275]Wing chun utilises elbow down for reasons we all understand. Elbow down is vulnerable to certain strategies which wing chun works a lot, as well as some that wing chun doesn’t work. Wing chun also works things that are not dependent on elbow down.
The problem is that virtually nobody punches elbow down in real life. How much of what is developed in wing chun is based on the assumption that the elbow will be down? How much is transferable to reality? Discuss.[/QUOTE]
I think the problem alot of guys have is they fight at boxing range. Good wing chun is clinch or kissing range. Rules change depending where i am. Elbows are our weapons as well as are reference points. We stab our elbows into our opponents centre of mass to feel what kinda fish i got on my line. Elbows down are crucial for recovery and unity in the stance. We finish a fight very quickly if the opponents elbows are up. This is why somone who can wrestle gives a wing chun guy problems. My golden rule is to remember we are rubbish at boxing range. Boxers are better punchers. Elbows up to cover at boxing range. Down when i get the line. Peace
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1239312]A common error in understanding vt is the lack of angling footwork. Movement with striking / parrying skills, because of this gap a lot of guessing and subjective ideas are added for not knowing the footwork and tactical ideas that make elbows very functional to vt. Er awesome vt. ; )
The acute angles of vt striking/ parrying elbows allow " mindless interceptions " when coupled with certain technical ideas that are BASICS, good basic knowledge.
As a coach I can see lack of correct footwork and corresponding movement. A lot of vt students try to touch arms for pressure while trying to stand still or pivot the arm out of the way. This might work against someone who also plays the same error, but can be easily shown for its counters from random attacking swings to chasing arms… Not rocket science.[/QUOTE]
You mean actively cutting potential attacking lines for the opponent with your punches to reduce or eliminate return punching while simultaneously covering yourself by choice of lines to attack along, elbow positioning, and angling off opponents line??
[QUOTE=tc101;1239330]I think guyb had an insightful post.
Keeping the elbow down is not unnatural at all I do not know where you get this. It just depends on what you are doing that makes it natural or not. I do not see wing chun as trying to overcome our nature. That is a losing proposition. I see wing chun as training us to use our natural reactions that are tweaked and developed to be better so we are improving on our nature not trying to overcome it.
I think the problem guyb mentions is that we practice dealing with problems our opponent or training partners give us and that often the only problems we see and get practice with involve dealing with other wing chun people who keep their elbows down and in. We do not get practice dealing with people giving us other more common problems.[/QUOTE]
I disagree that the punching mechanic taught in wing chun is not unnatural. It certainly is and people do not do this left to their own devices. You know what an untrained punch looks like. It is not a wing chun punch. Wing chun structure is fundamentally uncomfortable for beginners and needs constant reinforcement for a long time.
The second part of your post is exactly right, this is what I am saying. Ok so we need to train and work our particular structure. This is a no brainer. But the temptation to chase hands and start thinking along the lines of dealing with an elbow down opponent is very easy to fall into and I think for sparring you need to work with other styles much more than with other wing chun people.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1239343]You mean actively cutting potential attacking lines for the opponent with your punches to reduce or eliminate return punching while simultaneously covering yourself by choice of lines to attack along, elbow positioning, and angling off opponents line??[/QUOTE]
Yes. That’s vt strategy. We need triggers to move and strike with ko force as we attain angles.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1239294]Here is an example of what I mean, and I don’t intend to attach specific people or groups because almost everyone is guilty of this to some extent. This is just a good example I found on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF9Ivw_AOaQ[/QUOTE]
Good topic.
The reasons for elbow in and down in WT/VT/WC are sound, but in training it against someone doing the same (which is a good thing to do as both people are looking to train the same attributes), it does mean we’re also feeding each other the inherent problems too.
Elbow in and down creates a kind of uneven V-shape to the arm, and that creates a gap to strike through if you angle in (with a shift or even step that cuts in).
What’s strange (to me at least) in the video is that the student is smiling and shaking his head, unable to understand (or perhaps he’s just genuinely, truly surprised) how his teacher keeps striking him at will.
But this will always happen to him if he does what he is doing:
All easier said than done 
and the class format is a learning one where the instructor is illustrating points and ideas, but still… why does the guy look surprised/amazed?
I would also agree that the elbow in and down is anything but natural. It is hard to do well! And hard to maintain under pressure. There are very few day-to-day activities we do with our arms that put them in a position like this.
Perhaps it is easier for slim people - as the range of movement in the shoulder and arm is more flexible. I’ve trained with big guys who have large muscle mass around the shoulders and chest, and it is very hard for them to have the elbow in. Down, not so much of a problem, but down and in… not easy. Doable, but not easy.
And… 10 out of 10 for the dude in the background with the cool rockabilly hair.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1239349]Yes. That’s vt strategy. We need triggers to move and strike with ko force as we attain angles.[/QUOTE]
You think doing it vs another wing chun person is a good idea? Or better to familiarise with a more natural punching and moving style like you might meet in a street altercation?
[QUOTE=tc101;1239330]I think guyb had an insightful post.
Keeping the elbow down is not unnatural at all I do not know where you get this. It just depends on what you are doing that makes it natural or not. I do not see wing chun as trying to overcome our nature. That is a losing proposition. I see wing chun as training us to use our natural reactions that are tweaked and developed to be better so we are improving on our nature not trying to overcome it.
I think the problem guyb mentions is that we practice dealing with problems our opponent or training partners give us and that often the only problems we see and get practice with involve dealing with other wing chun people who keep their elbows down and in. We do not get practice dealing with people giving us other more common problems.[/QUOTE]
It’s not human nature to be able to both strike and defend with one arm. I show similar ideas to boxers in the gym and they all see it. Like a right cross going over another arm in boxing only dropping the elbow so it intercepts the incoming punch underneath it.
If the interception stops both arms hitting we have the hesitation point or conditioning point of vt. If one takes the arm back from this interception point the other " human " will probably ALSO take their arm backwards. So vt trains us to recondition the reactions we would normally make without vt. One would follow the retraction from interception.
A lot of bad vt make this simple error. Retraction as the contact hand is also retracted, both don’t stay with what came and followed, instead both retreated from interception and nobody got hit. : /
Human beings use hands unless trained like boxing to use elbows in to defend body shots. But the defense is to tuck elbows to the body, not create specific angles to allow striking with interception. Ingenious stuff. It takes a lot of repetition ( chi sao ) to condition the skills and stop us of both retracting on loss of contact. Then creating punching short range force with strong mobile stances to tactically reposition ourselves to fight.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1239354]You think doing it vs another wing chun person is a good idea? Or better to familiarise with a more natural punching and moving style like you might meet in a street altercation?[/QUOTE]
We train both ways - against someone punching with elbow in and down (this helps you understand the potential problems you might get into if you are not doing many of the things Kevin just mentioned); and also against someone punching in the more ‘conventional’ way, with the elbow not in and not down.
The differences don’t always look that big, but they feel very different and the options open to you against the two methods vary too.
[QUOTE=BPWT;1239357]We train both ways - against someone punching with elbow in and down (this helps you understand the potential problems you might get into if you are not doing many of the things Kevin just mentioned); and also against someone punching in the more ‘conventional’ way, with the elbow not in and not down.
The differences don’t always look that big, but they feel very different and the options open to you against the two methods vary too.[/QUOTE]
I agree, quite a world of difference in how they play off your structure and in terms of your conditioned responses. Of course they move and respond differently as well. Rather than getting training partners to punch both ways I think it is worth sparring with MT or boxing who are the experts in conventional punching structure
[QUOTE=guy b.;1239358]Rather than getting training partners to punch both ways I think it is worth sparring with MT or boxing who are the experts in conventional punching structure[/QUOTE]
Yes, but IMO sparring against decent (or at least practicing) boxers or MT guys should not happen too early.
You need to understand the art you train first. So for me, WT against WT. Then a WT guy feeding me some half-arsed MT kicks So I at least get a little use to dealing with something new. One you can handle sh*tty fake MT kicks, for example, then start working with some MT guys who know their art properly.
Unless, of course, you live in a really dangerous city full of boxers and MT guys who are known to attack people on the streets.
Sparring is important (against all types), I just think many who do spar with WT/VT/WC start too early.
But anyways, for us… we train with and without elbow in and down.
In drills it is good to mix it up too - to let your partner feed off of whichever comes. Like I was saying in the “One hand or two” thread, the opponent chooses your response to some degree with the attack they give you.