Wing chun works too much against elbow down?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

[QUOTE=T_Ray;1239337]Well, first there’s elbows down, and elbows correctly down and in centre, but thats another thing. ( but even more unnatural ).
Yes of course VT is against our natural tendencies.
[/QUOTE]

No no no not against natural tendencies if it were we could never develop skill as we would always be working against ourselves.

It is natural when under attack to flinch raise arms rotate shoulders, and back off. To panic and be irrational.
In VT we train specific ideas to overcome these natural behaviours.

If you are talking fight or flight yes those are natural and you learn to use the reaction.

Look down at your feet… Charlie Chaplin right? Heels in toes out? This is our normal natural stance. Not good for fighting.
To have proper VT line of force, we train the opposite with ygkym.
This is what I mean by natural/unnatural.

That is a good example. Yes we normally have our toes outward but this is so that we can step forward and keep stepping forward which is called walking so it is a natural way to stand since we normally walk when we move. If you run you do not run with your toes outward but straight ahead that is normal THEN. That is what I mean by it is natural for what you are doing. Just because something is natural for one thing does not mean it will be for something else.

I learned that we turn to the toes inward in the yjkym to aid in the sinking with the knees and this is tied to our power.

Where did I get this you ask?..

From my teacher, PB, who got it from his teacher, who in turn got it from his teacher :slight_smile:

So you got it from PB who told you he got it from someone else right? You should not believe everything you hear.

22

This really isnt a difficult concept. :rolleyes:

Ok. When we stand and walk we are heels in and toes out . When we .run we have straight thats great.
HOWEVER, when we start to fight we have heels in toes out and have to train ourselves to overcome this problem.
When you increase the stress in chi sao/goh sao the bad habits (lazy feet) return. We train and get better at not using the stance we spend most of our day in.
Increase the stress and the feet go crap again.

Yes Philipp explained this, and I understood and appreciated it. Like I said its not rocket science :slight_smile:

You can believe what you like.

23

[QUOTE=guy b.;1239275]Wing chun utilises elbow down for reasons we all understand. Elbow down is vulnerable to certain strategies which wing chun works a lot, as well as some that wing chun doesn’t work. Wing chun also works things that are not dependent on elbow down.

The problem is that virtually nobody punches elbow down in real life. How much of what is developed in wing chun is based on the assumption that the elbow will be down? How much is transferable to reality? Discuss.[/QUOTE]

We don’t force our elbow in, like it appears VT and some others do, and a lot of it depends on the body profile of the individual as well. We practice it in a natural position where muscle tension is neutralized.

A good way to test natural position is to have your arm at your side, and with avoiding raising your shoulder and twisting the body, reach out to a full extend and grab or touch something on your center line. Now keeping the same pathway retreat your hand to the wu sao position. This is the “outside elbow line” position. Now from this position rotate to tan sau. You will notice that your elbow rotates inward. This is the “inside elbow line”. If you do it this way you will notice that in Sil Lum Tao the fok sau is on what is the “middle/neutral elbow line”. This is the line that we place our forward hand in the WC guard position on.

What this “natural” positioning does is allow you to, not only have a wider “shield” so to speak, but these elbow lines are really the bread and butter of good WC. If you noticed, when transitioning from wu sao to tan sau there’s a spiraling motion involved. That motion is involved in every WC transition if you treat your elbow this way and is the basis of the “cutting edge” concept which is a whole nother topic in and of it self. This unified spiraling motion between the elbow and the hand is naturally the most efficient way to dissipate force. Combine it with the “bracing” footwork concept and you have the strongest example of structure available to dissipate force. This structure isn’t unique to WC by the way and is found throughout nature and industry.

Anyway, by developing that type of structure, it becomes very easy for one to translate it even when the elbow may rise in a conflict against a non WC person.

24

[QUOTE=WC1277;1239390]We don’t force our elbow in, like it appears VT and some others do, and a lot of it depends on the body profile of the individual as well. We practice it in a natural position where muscle tension is neutralized.

A good way to test natural position is to have your arm at your side, and with avoiding raising your shoulder and twisting the body, reach out to a full extend and grab or touch something on your center line. Now keeping the same pathway retreat your hand to the wu sao position. This is the “outside elbow line” position. Now from this position rotate to tan sau. You will notice that your elbow rotates inward. This is the “inside elbow line”. If you do it this way you will notice that in Sil Lum Tao the fok sau is on what is the “middle/neutral elbow line”. This is the line that we place our forward hand in the WC guard position on.

What this “natural” positioning does is allow you to, not only have a wider “shield” so to speak, but these elbow lines are really the bread and butter of good WC. If you noticed, when transitioning from wu sao to tan sau there’s a spiraling motion involved. That motion is involved in every WC transition if you treat your elbow this way and is the basis of the “cutting edge” concept which is a whole nother topic in and of it self. This unified spiraling motion between the elbow and the hand is naturally the most efficient way to dissipate force. Combine it with the “bracing” footwork concept and you have the strongest example of structure available to dissipate force. This structure isn’t unique to WC by the way and is found throughout nature and industry.

Anyway, by developing that type of structure, it becomes very easy for one to translate it even when the elbow may rise in a conflict against a non WC person.[/QUOTE]

Very articulate and nice post. Impressed by you. Should start callng you the wing chun doctor :wink:

25

[QUOTE=chaotic2k;1239690]Very articulate and nice post. Impressed by you. Should start callng you the wing chun doctor ;)[/QUOTE]

Thanks chaotic2k, but I’m just resting on the backs of Giants :wink:

26

[QUOTE=WC1277;1239708]Thanks chaotic2k, but I’m just resting on the backs of Giants ;)[/QUOTE]

True-but good post

27

This structure isn’t unique to WC by the way and is found throughout nature and industry.

True. Boxers are taught to keep their elbows in to protect against body shots. Wrestlers and BJJ guys are taught the same to avoid their arms being grabbed, under/overhooked, extended, and isolated. Leverage is better with arms close to the body as well.

28

WC emphasizes “elbow down”. But WC is also the only TCMA system that uses Bong Shou with “elbow up”.

29

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1239735]WC emphasizes “elbow down”. But WC is also the only TCMA system that uses Bong Shou with “elbow up”.[/QUOTE]

Down/up/ Frame of reference is important.

Upon contact bong sao rolls (subtle) downwards.

30

[QUOTE=WC1277;1239390]We don’t force our elbow in, like it appears VT and some others do, and a lot of it depends on the body profile of the individual as well. We practice it in a natural position where muscle tension is neutralized.

A good way to test natural position is to have your arm at your side, and with avoiding raising your shoulder and twisting the body, reach out to a full extend and grab or touch something on your center line. Now keeping the same pathway retreat your hand to the wu sao position. This is the “outside elbow line” position. Now from this position rotate to tan sau. You will notice that your elbow rotates inward. This is the “inside elbow line”. If you do it this way you will notice that in Sil Lum Tao the fok sau is on what is the “middle/neutral elbow line”. This is the line that we place our forward hand in the WC guard position on.

What this “natural” positioning does is allow you to, not only have a wider “shield” so to speak, but these elbow lines are really the bread and butter of good WC. If you noticed, when transitioning from wu sao to tan sau there’s a spiraling motion involved. That motion is involved in every WC transition if you treat your elbow this way and is the basis of the “cutting edge” concept which is a whole nother topic in and of it self. This unified spiraling motion between the elbow and the hand is naturally the most efficient way to dissipate force. Combine it with the “bracing” footwork concept and you have the strongest example of structure available to dissipate force. This structure isn’t unique to WC by the way and is found throughout nature and industry.

Anyway, by developing that type of structure, it becomes very easy for one to translate it even when the elbow may rise in a conflict against a non WC person.[/QUOTE]

You have a very shallow knowledge of elbow ideas.

31

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1239745]You have a very shallow knowledge of elbow ideas.[/QUOTE]

You wouldn’t understand. You’re too busy forgetting you have two arms.

32

[QUOTE=WC1277;1239747]You wouldn’t understand. You’re too busy forgetting you have two arms.

[/QUOTE]

You’re forgetting it isn’t a skill to use two arms against one. : )

33

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1239749]You’re forgetting it isn’t a skill to use two arms against one. : )[/QUOTE]

You’re forgetting this is about fighting!

34

[QUOTE=WC1277;1239753]You’re forgetting this is about fighting![/QUOTE]

Right, great comeback kid : /

35

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1239755]Right, great comeback kid : /[/QUOTE]

I thought it was valid :smiley:

btw I’m no kid

36

Interesting thread guy_b, I have been thinking about this a lot too of late.

It seems to me that the question and critical responses pretty much depend upon where you train and the particular regime of training the sifu(s) there insist upon. Consequently, to my mind what you propose is not a question for wing chun as a system but perhaps more a question to be put to certain winch chun schools and their lead sifus

For my part where I have previously trained, there was little by way of practice against ‘non- wing chun’ attacks and movements. Even when training has included defending against elbow up/out type strikes, often many involved in the training exercise do not know how to throw such strikes. In this context, then, I would answer yes; there is an assumption and over training of defence against elbow down strikes at that school.

This is not a universal trend (thank god) and even little old me has booked one-to-one time with fighters at the local mma gym for a 6mth project. Indeed, the questions you ask, guy_b, are some that I will be exploring for myself over the next 6 months. I guess this is a characteristic of a more ‘modern’ approach to training that stands in contrast to the more ‘traditional’ ways?

Again it becomes less and less a question to be asked of the wing chun system and more to do with different ways to train. Even this traditional/modern distinction is a little problematic. Still, there is a huge difference between the local martial arts club utilizing the local primary school’s hall and, say, what you would find at Gleason’s Gym.

Personally I think a better distinction would center on the extent to which one is training for real life violent encounters, where your circumstances mean you are more likely than others to encounter violence (police, security, pro-fighter, bad neighborhood etc.); on one side you have those who have a need to be able to fight and on the other those who are very unlikely to encounter violence and train wing chun as a hobby, with social aspects, as a part of a way to improve health and do a bit of self development.

Anyway, perhaps in a few months time I’ll have a better and more thought out answer on these questions.

37

Wing chun’s main compeitior in Foshan was Choy Li Fut. Famous for its swinging punches, some of which don’t keep the elbow down.

For linear punches elbow down is the best structure. You can strike with elbow out but not full body power and keep strucutre for recover.

Even Karate reverse punches should keep elbow down. More importantly elbow down means its easier to keep shoulder down.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

38

[QUOTE=Paul T England;1239787]Wing chun’s main compeitior in Foshan was Choy Li Fut. Famous for its swinging punches, some of which don’t keep the elbow down.

For linear punches elbow down is the best structure. You can strike with elbow out but not full body power and keep strucutre for recover.

Even Karate reverse punches should keep elbow down. More importantly elbow down means its easier to keep shoulder down.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk[/QUOTE]

If you are trying to dominate the centerline then keeping our elbow down and in keeps our arms aligned on the centerline. If our elbow goes up and outward like in boxing punches then while our fist can still hit a target on the centerline everything except our fist is off the centerline.

39

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1239745]You have a very shallow knowledge of elbow ideas.[/QUOTE]

No no no he has a different way of looking at his wing chun. Just because his ideas are different than yours does not make it shallow or wrong or inferior. I do not think wing chun is built honestly on deep ideas anyway but quite simple ideas it is only us that try to make things more complex and deep than they really are.

40

[QUOTE=Paddington;1239785]Interesting thread guy_b, I have been thinking about this a lot too of late.

It seems to me that the question and critical responses pretty much depend upon where you train and the particular regime of training the sifu(s) there insist upon. Consequently, to my mind what you propose is not a question for wing chun as a system but perhaps more a question to be put to certain winch chun schools and their lead sifus

For my part where I have previously trained, there was little by way of practice against ‘non- wing chun’ attacks and movements. Even when training has included defending against elbow up/out type strikes, often many involved in the training exercise do not know how to throw such strikes. In this context, then, I would answer yes; there is an assumption and over training of defence against elbow down strikes at that school.

This is not a universal trend (thank god) and even little old me has booked one-to-one time with fighters at the local mma gym for a 6mth project. Indeed, the questions you ask, guy_b, are some that I will be exploring for myself over the next 6 months. I guess this is a characteristic of a more ‘modern’ approach to training that stands in contrast to the more ‘traditional’ ways?

Again it becomes less and less a question to be asked of the wing chun system and more to do with different ways to train. Even this traditional/modern distinction is a little problematic. Still, there is a huge difference between the local martial arts club utilizing the local primary school’s hall and, say, what you would find at Gleason’s Gym.

Personally I think a better distinction would center on the extent to which one is training for real life violent encounters, where your circumstances mean you are more likely than others to encounter violence (police, security, pro-fighter, bad neighborhood etc.); on one side you have those who have a need to be able to fight and on the other those who are very unlikely to encounter violence and train wing chun as a hobby, with social aspects, as a part of a way to improve health and do a bit of self development.

Anyway, perhaps in a few months time I’ll have a better and more thought out answer on these questions.[/QUOTE]

I would not be suprised if you take up grappling after your venture. Good for you Paddy. Gotta give it a go. :wink: