I know this has been discussed before and the debate rages on about the importance / role of elbows. Watched this fight this morning and for those who say elbows just cut, try this clip of Munoz v Weidman. The elbow that finishes the fight is a cup jarn type of movement with very little behind it so not even one of the more powerful elbow strikes. Ref was very slow to stop the fight as Munoz was out before he even hit the ground.
Depends on the guy, depends on the conditioning, but if you have trained it right an elbow is a very powerful close-range technique. There’s plenty of evidence supporting that.
Also, even if most elbows did “just cut,” has anybody tried to fight with an eye full of blood?
I know this has been discussed before and the debate rages on about the importance / role of elbows. Watched this fight this morning and for those who say elbows just cut, try this clip of Munoz v Weidman. The elbow that finishes the fight is a cup jarn type of movement with very little behind it so not even one of the more powerful elbow strikes. Ref was very slow to stop the fight as Munoz was out before he even hit the ground.
Id disagree with your opinion of the elbow thrown here.
He’s got great structure in it, rolling the right hip with a slightly downward motion, munoz is also walking forward at the time.
I think that shot puts nearly anyone down. AS you said, he was out before he hit the ground
IMO elbows are vastly underutilised and underrated in self defense, and from a WC POV we are often in that range so i its a big yes to elbows from me.
Lol I just knew when I clicked on the thread that would be the fight posted lol
Thai elbows are designed to cut primarily hence slashing with the elbow point, Munoz managed to both duck into and almost run onto that shot, doesnt happen very often hence I knew that would be the fight you were posting!
Are elbows a good weapon? They can be especially if the opponent is pinned and cant absorb the strike by moving backwards, hence elbows on the floor do much more damage than elbows standing, elbows against the cage or against a wall do much more damage than those in the open, but they are still a good weapon to use in clos just maybe not a finishing weapon
Check these kids out at the 4.40 minute mark for some very good elbows which still are absorbed very well because there are done in the open http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF71BKbSX_o&feature=player_embedded#!
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1179332]I know this has been discussed before and the debate rages on about the importance / role of elbows. Watched this fight this morning and for those who say elbows just cut, try this clip of Munoz v Weidman. The elbow that finishes the fight is a cup jarn type of movement with very little behind it so not even one of the more powerful elbow strikes. Ref was very slow to stop the fight as Munoz was out before he even hit the ground.
Sure Elbows cut, especially IF you throw them that way ( which most do) but they can also smash ( in karate they fall under the category of “ate-waza” smashing techniques), anyone that has ever sunk in a hard elbow to the body knows its effects.
Because of the tendency for the elbow to be “overly” circular and aimed at the face, it tends to get more cuts than KO’s and when it does, people tend to view it as a “forearm smash” as opposed to an elbow.
We all remember Pat Smith destroying “Ninja Bob” in UFC 2 ( I think it was 2) with elbows from the mount.
And elbow KO’s happen frequently in MT.
Just for clarity folks, I’m a huge fan of elbows and a 100% believer in their ability to produce KOs. Previous discussions on here though have thrown up some opposite views from folks who clearly see elbows as an inferior weapon designed only to cut, so I was interested in their opinions of this clip.
Some luck in timing, as with all things. I have been cut several times with elbows, but not anywhere close to stopping me…I have used a lan sao stepping in , elbow to ko a guy in a bar as he was attacking me and the manager, the rear leg being the force.
Clothing can restrict an elbow with jackets, etc…I have been attacked by guy with an elbow in a bar once, it cut my lip but felt like hard ‘tap’…
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1179345]Just for clarity folks, I’m a huge fan of elbows and a 100% believer in their ability to produce KOs. Previous discussions on here though have thrown up some opposite views from folks who clearly see elbows as an inferior weapon designed only to cut, so I was interested in their opinions of this clip.[/QUOTE]
Its not that they are inferior or superior, its a case of horses for courses and when and where you chose to use them, elbows are rotational and if you miss you risk giving up your back (as royce found out when throwing them at matt hughes) personally i like to thorw forearms and punch them in when doing stand up, as i was taught in (hung gar lol)
I think they work better on the ground or up against a solid object, you see much more KO’s in MMA when they are thrown on the ground, or against the cage wall than out in the open, but at least when thrwon out in the open you have less change of breaking them as you do your figners, pick your weapon according to personal preference i suppose
[QUOTE=Frost;1179336]
Are elbows a good weapon? They can be especially if the opponent is pinned and cant absorb the strike by moving backwards, hence elbows on the floor do much more damage than elbows standing, elbows against the cage or against a wall do much more damage than those in the open, but they are still a good weapon to use in clos just maybe not a finishing weapon
[/QUOTE]
same could be said for any striking though.
I don’t read much in the WC forum, so this is the first I’ve heard of elbows being just for cutting. This is just silly. Like saying punches are just for pushing.
[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1179349]same could be said for any striking though.
I don’t read much in the WC forum, so this is the first I’ve heard of elbows being just for cutting. This is just silly. Like saying punches are just for pushing.[/QUOTE]
Some strikes are more penetrative and thus sink into the body, some push more like elbows and thus need a structure behind them (normally)to be most effective.
In MMA you tend to see Thai style elbows and thoase are designed to cut, hence the bony bit is shown, can other elbows be thrown and can they be knockout weapsons, yes but like I said horses for courses and yes the same can be said for all strikes:
all strikes have their benefits and weaknesses, hooks are very powerful but if you miss hard to reset, straight punches easier to recover from but normally easier to see coming, jabs are faster than crosses but not as powerful so on and so on right tool for the right occasion and all that
and get out of this forum whilst you can lol
[QUOTE=Frost;1179360]Some strikes are more penetrative and thus sink into the body, some push more like elbows and thus need a structure behind them (normally)to be most effective.
In MMA you tend to see Thai style elbows and thoase are designed to cut, hence the bony bit is shown, can other elbows be thrown and can they be knockout weapsons, yes but like I said horses for courses and yes the same can be said for all strikes:
all strikes have their benefits and weaknesses, hooks are very powerful but if you miss hard to reset, straight punches easier to recover from but normally easier to see coming, jabs are faster than crosses but not as powerful so on and so on right tool for the right occasion and all that
and get out of this forum whilst you can lol[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Frost;1179360]Some strikes are more penetrative and thus sink into the body, some push more like elbows and thus need a structure behind them (normally)to be most effective.
[/QUOTE]
The elbow strikes in Wing Chun should (according to what I have been taught / teach) be thrown with the same penetrating “inch” force as the punches and target the jic seen in the same way.
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1179332]I know this has been discussed before and the debate rages on about the importance / role of elbows. Watched this fight this morning and for those who say elbows just cut, try this clip of Munoz v Weidman. The elbow that finishes the fight is a cup jarn type of movement with very little behind it so not even one of the more powerful elbow strikes. Ref was very slow to stop the fight as Munoz was out before he even hit the ground.
We have similar sets… but, we stress not leaving the pit of the under arm exposed like in the video! We have techniques we train to attack that particular area when exposed…
[QUOTE=Frost;1179360]Some strikes are more penetrative and thus sink into the body, some push more like elbows and thus need a structure behind them (normally)to be most effective.
In MMA you tend to see Thai style elbows and thoase are designed to cut, hence the bony bit is shown, can other elbows be thrown and can they be knockout weapsons, yes but like I said horses for courses and yes the same can be said for all strikes:
all strikes have their benefits and weaknesses, hooks are very powerful but if you miss hard to reset, straight punches easier to recover from but normally easier to see coming, jabs are faster than crosses but not as powerful so on and so on right tool for the right occasion and all that and get out of this forum whilst you can lol[/QUOTE]
Haha, youre addicted arent you!
Id add that elbows are all about timing which tht video highlights
In KL22 elbows are not emphasised for beginners, but one of our favourite tools for seniors.
Why? If you are close enough to strike someone with your elbow, you are also close enough to get hit by the opponent’s elbow. So until one is proficient in that range, and in handling incoming elbows, best to keep the elbows to opportunistic only.
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1179453]In KL22 elbows are not emphasised for beginners, but one of our favourite tools for seniors.
Why? If you are close enough to strike someone with your elbow, you are also close enough to get hit by the opponent’s elbow. So until one is proficient in that range, and in handling incoming elbows, best to keep the elbows to opportunistic only.[/QUOTE]
This is also similar to how I’m taught as well. Basically, we’re told that the elbows are like having two extra hands, so before using the two extra hands, one must be proficient with his two natural hands first.
[QUOTE=EternalSpring;1179458]This is also similar to how I’m taught as well. Basically, we’re told that the elbows are like having two extra hands, so before using the two extra hands, one must be proficient with his two natural hands first.[/QUOTE]
This is really the truth of it. Elbows are weapons of oppertunity that come in handy in an emergency. Backwards when you can not turn quickly enough to defend from behind, and if you are holding someone or being held by them. The elbows can strike when the hands can’t. However, they are pitifully deficient as a primary weapon. An elbow weapon is only as long as the upper arm. That might be a little more than a foot on an average person, and you can not put your best power behind it. An elbow can hurt, there is no doubt, but if you can not make it work as a primary weapon it falls short. In a fight would you use only your elbows? Not hardly, as the fight would not last long. Elbows fall into the same catagory as the bong sao. It is only for when you haven’t a better weapon or defense.
