If wing Chun is based on natural movement. Does that mean we already know it…just don’t yet recognise it?
Should we spend all our time practicing what we know, or instead be searching for what it really is.
I mean, what our perception of wing chun is today…will probably be 180 degrees of how we see it in 10 years (provided we advance).
What do you think?
Originally posted by S.Teebas
If wing Chun is based on natural movement. Does that mean we already know it…just don’t yet recognise it?
It means that we had it when we were born, but was undone starting from that point on.
yeah, we may have been born with it, but i didn’t know how to move my body naturally until i started learning wing chun.
I think it means it is natural to the human body structure…
We know that newborn baby can naturaly swim if putted in water but I don’t think that they can fight!
I think like Joe that wing chun motions are natural in the sense that you don’t need to develop a great deal of physical flexibility to be good at it. I think mental flexibility is more usefull.
We could say “we don’t kick the head or punch the toes!”
One of my instructors yesterday explained the natural shape of WC really well. I was standing with my hands clasped behind my back. He pointed out that my arms were bent at precisely the angle that they are used at when guarding or forming the triangle structure. He then pointed to one of the Japanese girls there. Her right hand was hanging low, but her left was resting on her hip, and once again her arm was at the correct angle.
He was able to point it out in about six of us just by the way we were standing comfortably. The Wing Chun arm postion/angle is about as natural as it gets.
As for the stance though…
The human being have two natural respones; flee or fight. Take your pick… I choose fight!
I believe the issue is natural movement, not fighting. Movement is movement. How you apply the movement determines whether it is for fighting, dancing, or swimming.
I don’t think WC is based on “natural movement” as much as movements with maximum biomechanical efficiency which exploit to the full the physiology’s structure and functions for which it is designed.
I’m not even sure that walking erect is strictly a “natural” movement; all babies go through a learning process to learn to stand and walk.
whippinghand is correct in that healthy children are born with abilities to move through a wide range of motion with suppleness and flexibility and move and contort their bodies without strain; as we get older we tend to lose at least some of that freedom of movement due to injury, inactivity, unhealthy movement patterns and activities, etc. Kung Fu and Yoga are arguably designed to return that freedom and ease of movement we enjoyed as children.
You can do movements which look like WC without biomechanical efficiency. It’ll be crap, even pathological, but you can do it. The forms and movements of WC are not “natural”, but hopefullly they make efficent use of the body. Hopefully the practice will lead you towards greater freedom and ease of movement in general activities as well as combat.
The forms and movements of WC are not “natural”
But they are!
Some things like bong are easy, it is a natural position, for the arm to hang like that (with due consideration given to the fact that your lineage may do it differently etc ), but how is placing your elbow in the centre for fuk or tan sao natural?
Most people cant do it at first, and have to train for months before they can do it with no effort.
frank exchange
What is the purpose or advantage for placing your elbow in center for fook sao and tan sao. I don’t practice it this way, that’s why I’m asking. How many other people on the board do it this way? Not trying to criticize, just curious.
Structure
Hi Mun Hung,
One argument for the placement of the elbow in would be that it represents the ideal position. If you are used to placing the elbow in center and are attacked then even if you don’t get it all the way in you will be much closer due to always stressing that position. In other words we train for perfection so that if we are less than perfect in application it will still work.
The elbow in for Fook Sau provides an obstacle for someone striking along that line. During Chi Sau if your opponent tries to strike and your Fook is in center it will naturally form an obstacle for him to get past. This enables you to defend yourself much more efficiently. In this way even if your reaction is not as quick the structure of the Fook will aid in defending along that line.
If you train with the elbow out then you require either more movement to stop an attack or a different angle. You may find you need to shift in order to effectivley stop an attack. The elbow in is usually a bit stronger as well. However, some would argue that the elbow being more out is more flexible. Both ways are valid as long as you understand the possibilities.
The idea behind Taun is much the same. The angle when the elbow is in closer to center provides a stronger position stucturaly. If you shift and deal with an attack then the elbow being in center provides a stronger position. Again, some people will perform with the elbow not on center. Some are unable to get the elbow in. These methods can work but may require more movement. In other words the postion with the elbow in can provide an obstacle all on its own. The elbow out may require something to be added whether it be a step or turn or some type of movement of the arm.
Try this; perform a fook on the dummy with the elbow in center and then again with the dummy further out. Which one feels stronger? Now do the same with the taun sau. Of course with taun you may need to step or shift. But try both ways and see which one feels stronger. The strength is not from muscles but comes from the bones and the shape.
Just some quick thoughts. Each way can work and is valid. I think 
Peace,
Dave
Mun Hung,
You asked
What is the purpose or advantage for placing your elbow in center for fook sao and tan sao. I don’t practice it this way, that’s why I’m asking. How many other people on the board do it this way? Not trying to criticize, just curious.
In an ideal Wing Chun world, we would be flexible enough to comfortably place the elbow smack-dab in the center. Then, forward motions and strikes could be placed perfectly in the center of the target, driven perfectly forward with the elbow, and without errors or deviations in position or direction of force.
Having said that, people and circumstance are neither perfect nor ideal. I disagree with “forcing” the elbow to the center. I do, however, agree with slow maturation for increased flexibility and positioning range. Some people are built such that they will never get their elbows to the precise center. Trying too hard can be far more deleterious than accepting a moderated inward elbow position. I have even seen some poor souls contort their bodies trying to get and keep an elbow on exact physical center. Contorted and tense bodies cannot lead to superior Wing Chun, IMHO. To us, it is more important to have a good, functional, and relaxed position, than a perfectly centered position with a lot of tension and improper forces.
More important (to us) than perfect center positioning, is the ability to keep the elbow down (mai jahng) and not flaring out (fai jahng), the shoulders down and relaxed, and the “intent” true. Allowing the fook sau or tan sau to be comfortably parallel to the center line and mildly in is sufficient. I do not want my tan sau and fook sau to be one-position-only relative to the centerline, but to operate well within a range.
So, IMHO, no, it is not essential to put the elbow directly on that centerline, though it doesn’t hurt to have that ability.
Regards,
The forms and movements of WC are not “natural”
But they are!
One line sound bites do not an argument make.
I don’t suppose you’d care to elaborate on what you mean by “natural”?
The definition of “natural” I am working with is something that a human does without requiring training or tuition. When did you last see a baby stand in a pigeon toe stance with his guard out? Did you need someone to show you SLT or bil jee, or were you already doing them in the crib? If so, then I agree WC may be “natural” to you (though not to me or just about everyone else)?
I see WC as “biomechanically efficient in accordance with movements the body was designed to make”.
I am happy to be proved wrong by reasoned argument. “yes it does” and “no it doesn’t” and their ilk don’t cut it. I know you got better than this, let’s see it!
Originally posted by anerlich
healthy children are born with abilities to move through a wide range of motion with suppleness and flexibility and move and contort their bodies without strain; as we get older we tend to lose at least some of that freedom of movement due to injury, inactivity, unhealthy movement patterns and activities, etc. Kung Fu and Yoga are arguably designed to return that freedom and ease of movement we enjoyed as children.
I very much agree with the above up until a point. I wouldn’t say that the practises suggested have the potential to fully return the freedom that a child experiences, nor would we want that. But we do want it to the point that facilitates us being as powerful as possible, for our body type. (You may have touched upon that already)
Daveand KJ
Kathy Jo - you’ve read my mind.
Dave, I don’t recall seeing your elbow in center. I know that you’re just trying to offer your input on the subject so I appreciate it nonetheless.
Does the elbow in center really represent the ideal position? I don’t feel that it does. IMHO, I feel that with the elbow in center, the fook or tan would be structurally weak having no support from the shoulder and leaving an opening for a strike from the outside. I feel that this would only work with someone who is doing the same as you are and attacking along the center with their elbows in also. I feel that as soon as you break the line from shoulder to elbow to wrist - you’re losing out structurally and relying on just the power from elbow to wrist. Try delivering a punch from this position. Does it have any power?
Since we are discussing natural movement, I don’t feel that the elbow in center is very natural at all, nor does it feel natural. What I feel would be natural would be having the elbow just slightly in front of the body without any sort of tension while maintaining structure from the shoulder to the elbow to the wrist. Don’t mean to ramble on about this, it’s just that I’ve seen some pretty extreme exaggerations of this elbow in the center stuff.
Alrighty then…
>> What is the purpose or advantage for placing your elbow in center for fook sao and tan sao. I don’t practice it this way, that’s why I’m asking. How many other people on the board do it this way? Not trying to criticize, just curious. <<
Because sometimes it is necessary to have it there. This by no means implies that it is there all the time.
An example, when hitting with fook sao, your opponents arm is on the inside of your fook, and may be able to get off a counter strike. If you bring the fook to the centre as you hit, the opponents arm is deflected off your centre, ensuring your hit is clean.
Another example, the pak-sao followed by palm strike in the second part of SLT. In the WSL lineage, the concept is again that your centre may be threatened as you are hitting, so the elbow comes to the centre as the palm continues to the target, the elbow again diverting any opponents counter.
Or jum sao. How would you do single chi sao without bringing the elbow to the center when the opponent palm strikes and you are in tan sao? The concept here is all about covering the centre also. The advantage of centering the elbow in this situation, rather than forcing the opponents arm down, is that you divert the strike, but also end up with your arm aiming at the target, rather than away from it.
Again, it is not there all the time, but it is useful in some situations. 
anerlich…
Perhaps you could say what you think of the forms is un-natural? Are you saying that getting power from the forms movements are unnatural..or the movement? Is that what the forms are about anyway…movement in a natural way?
Isn’t that what you aim for anyway… to move in WC naturally? thats how people who are good at things do things, they make it seem easy, natural! so why not move naturally?..so why not find a way to make it natural… compare the movements in your forms to every day movements…bong sau, look at your watch. Tan sau, get your change.
You move naturally all day every day till you should.
frank exchange
I just don’t see the reasoning of why the wrist “and” the elbow have to dominate the center. With the right energy, is’nt the wrist enough?