I’ve not seen the clip that you mention. I only have the William Cheung video to compare it to, and it looks the same to me.
Its also worth mentioning that the BCD video was not the point of the thread. There were loads of clips, the BDC one was only one of them. I think its a package.
Appreciate what you have to say, Victor and others.
Could we say that each “martial art” way of thinking has limitations?
And that the rules of each system whether they be carved in stone (joke intended) need be learned, bent and broken?
Honestly, ever since I put on the gloves, I got enlightened! I couldn’t believe what I was missing as far as application was concerned. We all know know that Muay Thai is “King of the Ring” as they call it. Is this because it works in sparring, the ring and the street? Where does my WC fall into this?
Does WC need help in different areas? As Victor has suggested and as seen in many clips, should we box/kickbox our way into that in-fighting range?
Now, I know in my experience that in the kwoon, everything works perfect!!! LAF.
But, the drills we do is with a committed attacker who bridges that gap for me, punches a minimal combo, maybe leaves shadows and that’s it. Works great. But what about the WHAT IF senario. Where the attacker pops in, maybe you hit him-maybe you don’t-maybe you hit him and it’s not enough damage and he pops out and starts bobbing like a boxer?
Then I’m “almost” in a sparring situation where I need to clear the path and strike the centre.
Lots going through my mind, lots to write!!! All the best,
Kenton
Kenton,
Just a comment on some of what you said above. Concerning the WHAT IF scenario, and the “attacker pops in, maybe you hit him-maybe you don’t-maybe you hit him and it’s not enough damage and he pops out and starts bobbing like a boxer?” comment, to me when a student says something like this, I say it is obvious that you did not apply the Wing Chun correctly, otherwise how was the opponent able to pop into range and then out of range without you sticking to him. You see IMO this is the problem with some things said on this forum. Yeah I know that you cannot always perfectly apply everything learned and practiced from the kwoon in the reality world, but that rule and limitation apply to the other guy also, whether he is a boxer, MMA, JKD guy (but for some reason that is not a given on this forum, with them always being portrayed as perfect in execution and us WCners as imperfect most of the time. Just a observation). The key in training the applications we learn from the WC delivery system is to progressively increase the intensity and commitment when training it. Also you have to do this from perfect position and imperfect position regarding facing the opponent. Just last night I was teaching a class, I had them train footwork and positioning with partner while they were moving around the room trying to flank them, then I had them practice perception drills and warm up the eyes, then one hand vs. two, then at the end free sparring with punches only, putting it all together (obviously the seniors did better than the juniors, but still in application they all ended up doing it all well). I related that perfect execution in placement with the opponent is desired but is not always going to happen, but at the least step somewhere while defending/attacking simultaneously, this way you have at least given something back to the opponent to slow them down in their process to follow-up or continue on with their combination attack. My philosophy is to train to be perfect in the kwoon but be adaptable enough in application to deal with a imperfect setup or position, because in the street more than likely what you do (and they other guy) will be imperfect to some varying degree, depending on the skill of the person executing it.
James
I’m very impressed with the fact that they spar. All martial artists should train against a resisting opponent. And like you said. It’s easy to pick out what could-a should-a been done after the fact, especially when one isn’t in there giving and receiving blows. I give him and his school big props for that.
Hey Sihing!
when a student says something like this, I say it is obvious that you did not apply the Wing Chun correctly
—Ah! That’s the rub and the usual response, isn’t it! :eek:
Yeah I know that you cannot always perfectly apply everything learned and practiced from the kwoon in the reality world, but that rule and limitation apply to the other guy also, whether he is a boxer, MMA, JKD guy (but for some reason that is not a given on this forum, with them always being portrayed as perfect in execution and us WCners as imperfect most of the time. Just a observation).
—No. I don’t think it is that at all. Performance rules over precision. Boxing, MMA, and JKD have a more loose and informal “structure” that does not necessarily rely on “perfect execution.” When fighting or sparring a big factor is how well you can “flow.” Trying to make too many things “perfect” kills the flow.
My philosophy is to train to be perfect in the kwoon but be adaptable enough in application to deal with a imperfect setup or position, because in the street more than likely what you do (and they other guy) will be imperfect to some varying degree, depending on the skill of the person executing it.
—I agree. So then how can you say that the situation that Kenton described was Wing Chun incorrectly applied? If you are training for the imperfect setup or position, then you should be training for such situations. When MMA first hit the scene lots of people said “they could never take me down!” And they got surprised! Sounds like you are doing something very similar saying “they could never get away from me once I made contact!” You may get some surprises from a resisting opponent as well! 
Performance over precision. Things must flow. I think we have too much emphasis on “perfect technique” and not enough on effective sparring against various types of opponents.
Keith
“Performance rules over precision. Boxing, MMA, and JKD have a more loose and informal ‘structure’ that does not necessarily rely on ‘perfect execution.’ When fighting or sparring a big factor is how well you can ‘flow.’ Trying to make too many things ‘perfect’ kills the flow.” (KPM/Keith)
***THIS BRINGS UP A POINT that I constantly make to my students, but does not contradict what I’ve been saying about using a boxing/kickboxing framework (but still using wing chun central line principles and low kicking)…from longer distances.
Once you get to the close infighting range that I’ve been talking about - you do need to strive for near perfect execution, precisely because if you’re that close to the opponent - then he can easily hit or grab you also.
Again I’m going to try and make the point - it’s all about distance.
At longer ranges you can afford to have a looser structure; and in fact, it’s more critical to have one from there - because you have more space to be accountable for, and therefore you can’t afford to sacrifice seeing the forest in order to focus on the trees.
But from closer range you are less susceptible to kicks, for example, and can now afford to focus almost exclusively on what he’s doing with his arms/hands.
Hi Keith,
I think in the end, when you actually have to use the WC skills we learn in the kwoon on the street, executing perfect WC movements or applications is not the goal. Getting out safely is the goal. In practice if you don’t TRY for perfect movement and application then anything less will hinder your progression in what you are learning IMO.
I honestly didn’t try to give out the impression that I am perfect in anyway, sorry you saw it that way. But in regards to Kenton’s or others remarks on this forum, I find it a common theme that the WC exponent is mostly regarded as imperfect, and when they try to apply what is considered a WC technique, someone on here always comes back and says that could easily be countered by this, that or the other thing. Well there are two sides to every coin, and the same applies to them also. Like I said in my previous post, more than likely the execution of things in actual combat will have errors in them, due to many factors. The only way I believe is to practice as precisely as possible in a less stressful atmosphere, then slowly increase that stress as time goes by. No matter what anyone says here, people do not train to kill one another in the class or outside the class, there are limitations to training in the Martial Arts, and you have to train as realistically as you can, but not killing yourself at the same time.
"when a student says something like this, I say it is obvious that you did not apply the Wing Chun correctly.
Ah! That’s the rub and the usual response, isn’t it!"
Keith, I never look at individuals regarding MA systems, I look at what the system/style teaches and if it is structured around efficiency and effectiveness, then it is therefore logical to assume that is will reflect this in actual application. As a teacher of Wing Chun, when a student performs incorrectly they are usually doing so by not sticking to the WC concept being practiced, so therefore YES, that is the usual response. Like I said earlier, because of the human factor, perfection is not always possible, but basic adherence to the systems concepts and principals is, as I and others in my association have proven this so. Sticking and following up is basic, unless of course the person retreating turns around and runs away. I would assume then that the fight is over and the aggressor changed his mind, therefore no more fighting required which is the desired result in the first place.
James
James -but basic adherence to the systems concepts and principals is, as I and others in my association have proven this so-
in the chrismas spirit i won’t follow up on this one 
Please do so, enlighten me…
JR
hey kenton i feel what your saying!
i took the step from just doing wing chun to also training in mma, so doing boxing/muay thai sparring, stand up wrestling (pumelling, neck wrestling etc) and rolling on the gound.
enlightened may be a bit over the top hahaha but for me it was more of a slow steady but deep realisation. i think andrewS quote that lawrence has as his signature has really summed it up best so far (altho i’ll give it a crack in a mo). Havent got it here, but look on any of lawrences post it was something like “wing chun isnt so limited that i cant do it when i box, wrestle or fight mma, and i’m not so limited as a student that i cant learn from boxing or wrestling”.
i was thinking about it the other day, and basically the different ranges/styles of fighting are really training slightly different things. forget about this martial art or that martial art and free yo mind! Boxing is time and space, wing chun is energy and momentum and wrestling is pressure.
now sure wing chun deals in time and space too, but nowhere near the sick skills of a good boxer. wing chun also deals in pressure, but its not the same as wrestling, i think its really momentum we excel at dealing with, e.g. on the ground or in a heavy clinch your not really dealing with momentum but more slow ‘grinding’ pressure, so your slinky wing chun skills may not be applicable.
so hey im happy with wing chun and (thai) boxing and wrestling 
get out and do some judo or wrestling too kenton
James , you know you have next to no experience in dealing with the non wing chun element and speak on concept and hand me down info
do you really want to go down this road again
Hey Man,
I really don’t know where you are going with this? I made the comment "perfection is not always possible, but basic adherence to the systems concepts and principals is, as I and others in my association have proven this so.” How does that comment suggest a superiority complex or some kind of false sense of reality? It is because you think the people tested against it are all WC kool aid drinkers with not enough experience to punch their way out of a paper bag? Well to me that would be a judgment plain and simple. The fact of the matter is that know one here knows really what any of us can apply, never mind myself.
If you think I have nothing to offer regarding real self defense or fighting, or that my information is just “copied and paste”, please continue to believe that judgement you have made. To me it is unimportant to have your approval or anyone else’s.
Peace;) ,
James
Victor,
I agree that you need to stay outside the elbows at that point in the exchange. I believe I said that. The problem with trying to ‘hit’ from there is that you will need to extend yourself to a point where you are vulnerable. You need to improve the odds in your favor. Letting him move around freely makes your job much harder. Stop that first, then you can hit. Until that point attempting to go in for the bit strike is much more of a gamble IMO.
James ,
you have admited
you do not spar
you don’t go outside of your [Kwoon] and mix it up with even a poor little boxer
god for bid a good thai or MMA guy
yet you have all these definitive statements about the level of the quality of your Kwoon ,
with really nothing to base it on at all !
if were are talking Drills , or forms or isolated testing , then yep you know you $hit and i would never question you on it , hell i would listen and learn
but when it comes to getting in front of skilled dudes
please James
just be honest and speak from experience not what you ‘‘THINK’’ should happen that’s all
that just adds on the to the same old wing chun arrogance that is killing the system all the way around 
What’s your fighting credentials?
If one must valididate one’s fighting experience before they can post here, then I’m afraid no-one here qualifies.
Who have you fought of rupute Ernie? Have you ever fought someone that was genuinely trying his best to kill you, or intent on causing you major damage? Have you met some one that was totally ruthless and would take every opportunity to finish you without second thoughts or hesitation? Even if you had, how skilled was he?
Has anybody here fought a true Thai champion with no rules full out?..Or an opponent that out weighs you by 40lbs plus?..What about a BJJ black belt on the street? Or a pro boxer without the girly gloves? Tell me the truth now – FULL OUT!
If no one can answer yes to any of the questions above, then I’m afraid your experience is just as valid as James’
There are so many variables in combat that it’s very foolish to poo poo people’s ideas simply because they may lack real world experience.
Mike Tyson had many fights on the streets, but what could he teach you about wc? Indeed, you could question Mike’s experience in real combat… he coundn’t even knock out Mitch Green in a street fight when he punched him so hard that he fractured his own hand!
In the end, who do we have to fight in order for us to be taken seriously on this forum?
Jeez…I don’t read Jame’s posts anymore, but from what Ernie just said…I guess nothing’s changed! :rolleyes:
…
“Victor,
I agree that you need to stay outside the elbows at that point in the exchange. I believe I said that. The problem with trying to ‘hit’ from there is that you will need to extend yourself to a point where you are vulnerable. You need to improve the odds in your favor. Letting him move around freely makes your job much harder. Stop that first, then you can hit. Until that point attempting to go in for the bit strike is much more of a gamble IMO.” (Bill)
***NOT SURE if we’re talkin’ about the same thing, Bill. An example of what I mean by staying outside his elbows would be something like this:
I’m in a left front stance - he’s in a right front stance. But it’s important that I keep my lead foot slightly to the outside of his lead foot as I initiate the attack. (This helps preserve my ability to possibly outflank him and maybe even create a two-on-one hand to hand advantage…ie. - his left hand might temporarily get taken out of play).
If I’m not close enough yet for arm-to-arm contact - I might throw a lead right punch toward his right side and therefore try to feed off his response - or if I am within one quick half step of contact - my strategy then might be to try and jam up his lead right elbow with some combination of gum sao (like pak but more of a pinning/jamming energy than the slapping energy of pak)…with my lead left hand…and/or lop da…or even a very aggressive bong leading to pak/gum or lop da.
And the whole idea is not to let him move about freely - but to jam him up from outside his lead elbow - while hitting/arm locking/leg sweeping, etc. based upon whatever opportunity arises or openings I can make.
If he tries to step back - I’ll follow him…either by maintaining a lead left leg or possibly taking a full step forward with my right leg now landing to the inside of his lead right leg - or possibly kicking with my right leg at his groin or abdomen…
In other words - I’m trying to jam him up, take his space away, and maintain the pressure on him.
And needless to say - this entire strategy might have to change in a heartbeat depending upon what he does.
Victor,
Looks like we’re in agreement here.
It’s not fighting experience per se, but rather experience with other martial arts and styles.
Well let me just say this. After 14yrs of teaching, wouldn’t it be safe to say that one would meet a few Martial Artists outside of your own style, system, lineage? I wonder what happened during those meetings??
James
Yadda yadda yadda…this is becoming to predictable…
Prove it. Please prove with absolute certainty to all those here my fighting skills. You can’t because there has never been any personal contact between the two of us, so therefore the above is what, conjecture/guessing? Like I said please feel free to continue the judgement, feel free to believe what you want as this has no reflection on my or anyone’s skills or performance in Wing Chun.
James