Takedown V Attributes

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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OR

“For God’s sake take off the f#@ing Gi!!!”

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6883436735443317716&q=Sakuraba+vs+Royce

For anyone who hasn’t seen this fight.

Here’s Royce getting owned and without the fight really going to the traditional ground phase and finish that many have seen as nearly unavoidable especially with such a skilled ground fighter and takedown artist like Royce. IMO Kazushu Sakuraba’s excellent use of distance management, use of his opponent’s energy, position (and Gi :smiley: ) plus other attributes are major factors that allowed him to dominate Royce in this match.

I’m sure others will have their opinions about the whys and whats in this one so please share any thoughts..

2

This is pretty old and I would imagine most people would have seen it.

There is no question Royce is a skilled groundfighter, but I wouldn’t put him in the top 1% of takedown artists by any stretch. Sakuraba IMO is much better at takedowns (his low single is excellent and super fast), and probably a much better all-around technical grappler (which wins over 3 other Gracies would substantiate - his reversal, throw and kimura to beat Renzo was a piece of technical brilliance).

Saku was the better fighter and better grappler on the day (and would have been on most other days as well). Keeping the fight standing as much as possible was not doubt a good strategy, though Saku would hardly have been out of his depth if the fight had hit the ground.

I am biased, being one of Saku’s greatest fans.

Very little to do with WC here, but I can change that - watch Sakuraba v Allan Goes. Goes adopted a strategy of kicking and striking from the guard, not dissimilar from the “groundfighting” espoused by some WC styles including TWC,
and caused Saku significant problems throughout the entire match.

3

These clips proves beyond any doubt that there’s absolutely no comparision between street fighting and TV shows. People who cite these fights in support of their own fighting strategy and how fighting have advanced in the last 10-years know fighting not at all.

Just look at clips…Royce had his groins exposed (excuse the pun), but the other guy choose to punch his face instead. Another stupid technique that’s often used is one guy would wrap his legs around his opponent. If you did that moronic technique on the street, you would get your spine smashed on cold concrete.

Are these fights reflective of true life?

Some may think so. The same ones that think we can evaluate wing chun’s effectiveness — or limits – under the same conditions

4

This may have been said before . . . if so I am sorry for duplicate . . . of course fight in ring or sport is not the same as fight in street or selfdefense . . . it is not meant to be . . . BJJ for example is modified based on where and how it is used . . . BJJ in gi tourney . . . different fgrom BJJ in no gi tourney . . . different from BJJ in MMA . . . different from BJJ in street . . . how BJJ is applied depends on circumstances . . . but grappling fighting skill is the same across spectrum of BJJ. This is also true of boxing or muay thai or wrestling and so on . . . what they normally do is modified for MMA . . . and modified again for street . . . it is skill and experience that permits this. The sport part and the MMA part only allow for greater development of skill . . . since sport means getting lots of practice using it . . . since can not get so much experience in street . . . I can roll or box every day . . . I do not want to street fight unless I can help it. Lots of great . . . and not so great . . . BJJ fighters have had many many street fights . . . BJJ was proven in streets of Brazil . . . and those are pretty means streets . . . not just ring. In fact, some of older generation BJJ fighters have had more street fights than MMA fights. So I agree that clips of MMA fight are not necessarily great . . . though some times can be . . . for this is how you should fight in street . . . but they do show level of skill being applied . . . and can show gaps in skill too.

Thanks,

Ghost

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So, how do you personally evaluate wing chun’s effectiveness — or limits?

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Ghost sez: of course fight in ring or sport is not the same as fight in street or selfdefense.

Thank you, Ghost…but then, why do some on this forum treat it as gospel? Why do people guage the effectivess base on these TV shows?

Knifefighter, my old friend, it’s quite easy to test if you are any good – use it on the street, with someone genuinely trying his best to smash your FK face in. However, in this day and age, it’s not advisable to go round looking for violence…but there’s a way to circumvent the law…Just like many of my fellow wing chun practitioners, get yourself a job where violence is part and parcel of the job…like sercurity guard in a very violent club, a pub landlord in a scumbag council house estate, an enforcer in the local triad or money lender…

Or, just like good old Derek Jones, go to gypsy camps where they have bareknuckle fights for money…

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Very little to do with WC here, but I can change that - watch Sakuraba v Allan Goes. Goes adopted a strategy of kicking and striking from the guard, not dissimilar from the “groundfighting” espoused by some WC styles including TWC,
and caused Saku significant problems throughout the entire match.

Sakuraba vs Crocop was another one where Crocop kicked up from the guard to win the match.

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Thank you, Ghost…but then, why do some on this forum treat it as gospel?

They don’t.
You’re just that biased that you see any criticism as an affront to WC.

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hey chisauking,

ok fair enough thats a realistic test, but ive got a few problems with it. first up how can you be progressive with it?? theres no safety you just get smashed up/stabbed whatever. with the risk of death or serious injury plus all the shady drug dealing and stuff that goes on is it worth it?? maybe its ok for the wing chunner with 10 years of serious training but what about more ordinary people? lots of amateur mma fights for those who want to fight at a lower level with some safety and fairness.

second i dont base wing chuns effectiveness or not on tv shows i base my level of ability on me. so if i go spar with an mma fighter and get beat up i know I have to improve. I dont give a **** about the gracies really. also not all mma fights look the same. the manhoef vs cyborg fight at the last cage rage was mostly stand up and an awesome fight. check it out and let us know what you think of that!

third as ghost said of course its different. no up in your face arguing stuff no bottles in yer face no gang ready to shoe you in but apart from that in many ways mma is very realistic compared to say boxing. nearly all the real fights ive seen start with a load of wild punches then go to stand up wrestling and clinch stuff (good old headlocks and stuff like that) then usually someone ends up on the floor trying to get back up. that bit i think IS very realistic. ok ok maybe going for an ankle lock from guard doesnt happen very often but still doesnt mean you cant use mma for a useful tool. eg is chisao realistic?? no. is it useful? yes. same as mma. take whats useful ignore the fluff

also, one of the guys i train mma with has been to gypsy barenuckle fights and they have rules too. its a kind of boxing, and very sloppy from what i hear. if one falls they get up, theres no kicks, and a few other rules i cant remember. in fact someone who travels quite a distance to train mma said theres a gypsy training up for a fight at his local boxing gym. he said they wouldnt last 2 minutes against a decent boxer or thai fighter. of course there the last people on earth to get in any trouble with unless you like fighting with knives and shotguns :eek:

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There is much to see in NHB or MMA fight . . . if one know what to look for.

Knifefighter, my old friend, it’s quite easy to test if you are any good – use it on the street, with someone genuinely trying his best to smash your FK face in. However, in this day and age, it’s not advisable to go round looking for violence…but there’s a way to circumvent the law…Just like many of my fellow wing chun practitioners, get yourself a job where violence is part and parcel of the job…like sercurity guard in a very violent club, a pub landlord in a scumbag council house estate, an enforcer in the local triad or money lender…

Or, just like good old Derek Jones, go to gypsy camps where they have bareknuckle fights for money…

I am thinking you must be joking . . . but in case you are serious . . . to win fight on street will only means one is better fighter than opponent . . . not necessarily that one is a very good fighter . . . or that technique or art is good . . . just that you are better than guy on street . . . beating up on untrained or misusing security post is being bully and not indication of good fighter . . . good fighter is someone that can beat other good fighter. For example . . . if the ground was a swimming pool then the untrained person is a very poor swimmer . . . and a BJJ purple is a shark . . . lol . . . untrained not much of a challenge for shark . . . but there are bigger and hungrier sharks . . . but one will not find them on street since they only grow that big on mat . . . same for stand up fighters.

Thanks,

Ghost

11

fooling yourself

Edmud sez: They don’t.
You’re just that biased that you see any criticism as an affront to WC.

I guess we are all bias in some way, shaped by our own experiences and idiosyncrases. But if you are utterly truthful with yourself, you know you can TEST yourself if you really choose to do so. Why restrict yourself to the confines of safety when the reality of truth lies waiting for you should you choose to take that path.

I lot of people on this forum don’t like what I say, because what i say comes from the heart. Most people on this forum probably never ever had a real fight in their entire lives, and they are too afriad to find the truth for themselves, so they base their experience on fighting by those TV shows and judge wing chun’s effectiveness by account of wing chun not winning those shows – and proceed to say wing chun lacks this and that.

Well, I have got news for those people – tough titties. I will say what ever is true – even if it means shattering your illusions and making you cry. Yes, there is no tooth fairys or santa claus. Yes, there are NO ways to prove wing chun’s effectiveness and efficiency, with the exception of going full out on the street. You will never ever see wing chun working if you put a birdcage on your head, wrap your hands with cotton wool, and restrict yourselves with rules and conditions.

If people don’t like me to say wing chun doesn’t need mixing with anything else, and those shows are not a reflection of reality fighting ---- prove me wrong. Come, see if I can intercept your roundhouse kicks with my boot; see if I can damage your spine if you wrap your legs around me whilst fighting on hard concrete; see whether I would punch your face or your testicles if given the option.

you can always fool others, but you will never fool yourself. If the truth hurts, tough shiiitttt.

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You’ve pretty much illustrated my point.

You’re biased and can’t handle criticism.
Anything that disagrees with you insults your idea of the “truth”.

The topic wasn’t even about the relevance of MMA fighting but you keep bringing it up because you’ve got a chip on your shoulder.

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chisauking-
You are 100% right. Fighting regularly in the street or as part of one’s job is a much better test of an art’s effectiveness than soley fighting in sport competitions. If you are regularly doing this and winning, then your WC is indeed serving you well. What is is that regularly puts you in these types of situations?

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" lot of people on this forum don’t like what I say, because what i say comes from the heart. Most people on this forum probably never ever had a real fight in their entire lives, and they are too afraid to find the truth for themselves, so they base their experience on fighting by those TV shows and judge wing chun’s effectiveness by account of wing chun not winning those shows – and proceed to say wing chun lacks this and that.

Well, I have got news for those people – tough titties. I will say what ever is true – even if it means shattering your illusions and making you cry. Yes, there is no tooth fairys or santa claus. Yes, there are NO ways to prove wing chun’s effectiveness and efficiency, with the exception of going full out on the street. You will never ever see wing chun working if you put a birdcage on your head, wrap your hands with cotton wool, and restrict yourselves with rules and conditions.

If people don’t like me to say wing chun doesn’t need mixing with anything else, and those shows are not a reflection of reality fighting ---- prove me wrong. Come, see if I can intercept your roundhouse kicks with my boot; see if I can damage your spine if you wrap your legs around me whilst fighting on hard concrete; see whether I would punch your face or your testicles if given the option.

you can always fool others, but you will never fool yourself. If the truth hurts, tough shiiitttt" (chisauking)

***WELL, CHISAUKING…that’s real tough talk…but I, for one, am the exception to your rule (and I know that I’m not the only one).

I’ve fought on the street a number of times since taking up wing chun…in the 70’s..in the 80’s…the 90’s…and as recently as October, 2000 on a moving subway train. (And in one incident in the 80’s it was against two guys).

AND I TRAIN WITH THE HEADGEAR WITH FACE CAGE…which you like to target with the snotty phrase “birdcage”.

And wing chun works real well in certain instances - and in other instances I’ve chosen to use rear crosses and boxing hook punches…and a takedown to the ground and pound - because that’s what fit the moment.

AND I TRAIN WITH THE HEADGEAR WITH THE FACE CAGE…because I understand the importance of frequent hard spontaneous sparring - and so to avoid injuries we use protective gear…in addition to bareknuckled lighter contact sparring.

It’s not the either/or situation that you would like us to think.

And many of those guys on the “TV shows” that you refer to (I assume you mean UFC and Pride stuff)…are the kind of guy I would advise that you take your blade with you if you ever make an appointment to meet them somewhere. :rolleyes: :cool:

NOW ALL THAT SAID…yes…wing chun is a street art first and foremost because more often than not a street situation will be close quarters…not much dancing around like boxers and kickboxers…but certainly plenty of chances for a grab, clinch, and grapple type of fight…and with the shoes on (a straight heel kick to the legs can be very formidable when wearing a shoe)…

so yes…the street is one thing…the ring in front of a TV camera can be different.

But let’s not use that difference as a catch-all excuse to bypass the need for realistic training - which should include lots of geared up competitive sparring or even some sparring tournaments from time-to-time…and let’s not use that as an excuse to pooh-pooh the value of grappling and other moves (like some boxing) that do work very well on the street - and in some situations - will work better than the wing chun moves.

Otherwise we sit in our kwoons and just tell Santa Claus that we are the baddesssst mofo he’s
ever delivered a Christmas gift to.

THERE ARE WAYS TO PROVE WING CHUN’S EFFECTIVENESS SHORT OF ACTUALLY FIGHTING IN THE STREET…when sparring with protection.

And amoung friends - or in an organized tournament…otherwise…yes, it’s better in the street.

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YES YES YES!!!
Now thats what i like…a Gracie getting his a$$ handed
to 'em
Like i said before that bjj or mma sh.. ain’t the end of the world
ha ha ha ha haaaa!:smiley:

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OK, Victor: let me ask you this simple question. How would you demonstrate the use of tan-dar against someone that’s 20lbs hevier than yourself, and he can use full and continuos force, whilst wearing a birdcage and boxing gloves?

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Knifefighter sez: What is is that regularly puts you in these types of situations?

Answer: DANGER

Ghost: you wasting your time in training. Carry on watching WWW, WFC, K100,

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Thank you for advice . . . I will carry on none the less . . . lol . . . and consider watching NHBs as part of education . . . but it is fine you feel differently . . . diversity of opinion is great thing . . . in the end what matters is if your training serves your needs . . . we do not all have same needs or goals . . . so it is not surprising that our training and opinions vary.

Thanks,

Ghost

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That’s exactly what I mean, Ghost. Your opinions is based on watching TV shows, my facts are based on actual fighting.

My own experiences says those TV shows don’t reflect what happends in a real fight, some other’s experiences, based on those shows, says it does. That’s why I have been saying all along experiences are not the same.

The thread was about attributes and takedowns, but in the persective of wing chun fighting, it just isn’t realistic. But I guess it is hard to convince people when millions believe in WWF WTF wrestling.

Each to their own.

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Please tell us about all your actual fights and fighting experience . . . I am sure everyone is interested in this views of some one with this extensive back ground . . . is there any documentation of your fights . . . any video for example . . . have you fought anyone that was well trained? Or is this case of trust you?

Thanks,

Ghost