Check out "white Lotus wing chun ",video clips.Constructive critism welcome !
www.wingchunkungfu.net
I like the 3rd full contact clip:
http://www.wingchunkungfu.net/videos/012_full_contact_3.wmv
He threw a decent punch.
OK, fisrt: not bad. not bad at all.
But, you asked for constructive criticism so thats what I’m gonna try and give you… bear in mind the written word is sometimes a bit clumsy and I’m gonna have to be very nit-picky to get across a couple of simple points we’d be able to talk about and clear up very easily face to face.
I’m not quite sure what I’m looking at here…
the website says on the ‘applied fighting techs’ section that
There is no “sparring” as such; the applied fighting techniques are preparation for the real thing (see the full contact section).
… if we go to the ‘full contact’ section
it says
The aim is simple: to defeat an attacker within five seconds using this famous Kung Fu system popularised by Bruce Lee.
… and yet when we watch the vids it looks like sparring! In fact the second one goes on for 35 secs, so we can guess they’ve missed their ‘aim’…?!
And yeah, the third one has a nice punch. So what?! (Sorry, that’s prob not v constructive… but I’m in a hurry so i wanna get my point across quickly)… check out a boxing sparring session: there’ll be twenty or so of those in three mins. If the ‘aim’ is ‘to defeat an attacker within five seconds’ they’ve failed again… the punches are not using any hip movement, and therefore are relatively powerless, which is why despite the aim the attacker does not seem to be ‘defeated’.
Also, this sentence…
These bouts are unique to White Lotus. No other Wing Chun school in the UK offers this level of reality training.
is not true… it seems fairly standard wing chun pattycake to me… no offence but again, looking at the second clip, there are a couple of chain punch sequences with no ****ing target and a pak sao with no power behind it at all, prob because it’s not using any hip motion whatsoever and is coming from too far out to effectively hit the opponent’s elbow towards his body, which is then repeated despite its obvious failure from the first time. Also technically everyone seems fond of the snap kick (almost karate-style) to no apparent target or effect to start off each bout.
This kind of chambered snap kick has its place, but closing the distance and entering is not it: that’s what we have the ‘walking’ kick in chum kiu for.
This just made me laugh (constructively of course! 
)
All bouts are carried out under strict supervision due to the ferocity of the techniques used.
a) Didn’t see anything particularly ferocious. b) What does the supervisor do? Step in and stop the ferocity half-way?! :D… but that’s just me being a cynical pratt and is nothing to do with the site or the constructiveness!
Minor points:
The site guy can’t spell ninjutsu. Bit worrying for a ninjutsu practitioner.
The bong saos on the ‘wing chun’ page seem very far forward… look up the thread on progressive rotator cuff injury.
His philosophy is that ‘no school is superior to another’ yet he maintains (wrongly) that he practises things in a way that no other school does.
He doesn’t say anything about his lineage.
His Lok sao vid has the punches going way over the partner’s head… these drills are supposed to be for sensitivity and reflexes, not reality I know, but what7s the point of practsiing something so way off the target?
The old ‘defence against a kick gag’ where some guy comes in and kicks once before stopping in his tracks and allowing a catch and well, whatever he likes, is so passe! :rolleyes: OK, I know it’s a demo, but it is still meaningless, except maybe to explain why in the full contact clip they come in with such useless kicks at the start of each bout.
I want a pair of baat: which ones would I be buying? There are two different ones in the photo on the page selling them which (silly me! 
) I assumed would be a pair.
That’s about it. Please don’t take it personally, you asked for it, it’s just my opinion and i don’t have time at the mo to be diplomatic!
Ooh there’s a bunch of constructive criticism I could give to those clips, but I don’t have time at the moment. However, I would say that for your sparring sessions it would be better to use different gloves as the bag gloves that you’re using now prevent you doing some proper wing chun techniques (lop sau for example) - which may explain why the sparring looks like it does.
Quick points:
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Dummy video - I know you don’t want to move the dummy much as it’s not nailed down, but I couldn’t see very much connected energy at all. Lop sau again is an example.
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Were you putting ‘deliberate mistakes’ in the knife form just in case someone tries to steal your techniques?
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I’m not saying I’m any better, but on the single sticking hand clip, the positioning is lost several times (bong sau being notable) - it might be worth doing it slower and concentrating more on getting that right.
Like Mat above, not personal criticism, just quick observations.
The thing I like most about this clip is that it shows how futile it is to try and enter with chain punches. The opponent picked it up quite well and countered with a nice punch to the head.
hey,
i actually was really impressed with one of your other videos, the “dan chi sao”. I often practice this kind of chi sao, but not with such fluid/varying movements that seem more like a kind of low-end sparring.
I watched it a few times to try to understand what is going on… in my school it’s very much just: palm strike - bong sau - reset. (or, jut sao - straight punch - reset)..
that would be going on with your video, at a faster pace, but then without word the sides would change, and extra movements would be in there..
just curious - could you explain what is going on ?
cheers,
Oh yeah, that’s another point… the dan chi sao seemed like ‘low-end sparring’ which pretty much defeats it’s purpose. As Sek said, structure seems to be sacrificed, as does sensitivity presumably, esp since they are often moving around without entering at all.
Yeah, nice counter to the futile trademark wing chun moves… wonder where he learned that!:rolleyes: Only kidding, it was a nice vid but… hang on, I DO wonder where he learned that: if that was in the school too good, but why is that guy trying to enter with chain punches, and why are there other examples of the same thing on the vid?
Yea! What Bill said! 
And why is it that the most effective exchange on that clip…the part that was actually slow-motioned so we would be sure and see it…looked more like boxing than Wing Chun?
Keith
Would I be right in assuming that no-one likes these clips then?
I think people are hesitant to offer “constructive criticism”. It’s a slippery slope that tends to get people’s noses out of joint. The clips are interesting. I agree with the points that both you and Mat made, and could add a few more. But, since I’m not willing/able to post my own clips it might not be fair. It’s much too easy to be a critic.
When was the last time you saw a film critic produce a film of their own?
First of all, props to Stormtrooper for even posting the sparring videos. Not enough wing chun folks are willing to do even that much, imo.
Won’t add anything to what’s been said so far about chain punching, destroying opponents in just a few seconds, etc. Those bases have been covered well.
But I will comment on this:
“Why is it that the most effective exchange on that clip…the part that was actually slow-motioned so we would be sure and see it…looked more like boxing than Wing Chun?” (KPM/Keith)
***THIS GOES RIGHT to the heart of the matter, imo, about wing chun. It’s techniques work best only when you get very close to your opponent. It’s basically a short range striking/kicking art. So supplementing that with longer range striking and footwork as it is found in an art like Boxing makes a lot of sense.
It certainly does go to the heart of the matter. The real problem is that the chain punch, if it is to be used at all, would be used AFTER you have contact with the opponent and have taken control of the situation. It is not, IMO, something to be used to enter. When I look at the clip, I see someone making a wild attempt to ‘hit’, and yet they have not established the right to do so. Therefore they failed. Plain and simple.
Wing Chun is NOT a short-range art, unless that is all you use it for.
You know, I can use a hammer to break a piece of wood into two pieces, however I find that a saw does a much cleaner job. In other words, use the right tool for the job.
What I got out of the few clips that I watched, especially the sparring ones was that WC doesn’t work well against a defensive fighter or one that is running away, but what MA does? In actual situations is there such a thing as a “defensive fighter”. When you’re on the street the time to attack is when the person is coming forward towards you, right? If this is not what is happening then are you really being attacked for real? This is the basic problem with sparring IMO, the aggression level is not sufficient enough in most cases. You can dance around me all you want with the fanciest boxing footwork for all I care, until you are in range and attacking me with your weapons, I am safe. Forward aggression is needed for most all MA to work, unless you are a counter puncher and using the opponent forward momentum against them.
The Mok Jong was sloppy and the guy performing it didn’t stick well to the arms. It looked mechanical to me and without flowing movement and continuity.
James
Observations not attacks…
I agree with some of the stuff already said and victor hit it on the head -
Big Ups to you for Sharing
One thing that is abundantly clear to me is the kicks.
My VT holds to the theory that without the hands in contact we NEVER use the front kick.
Of course i use the side kicks for longer range but at close range i never use the kick without my hands in contact ( mainly to take balance) and i noticed people had difficulty with the kicks… Try them with a hand in contact i.e after a Lop etc.
Chain Punches are Awesome in my opinion but some people just blast as fast as they can, they dont match the timing of the fight…people need to look at Vitor Befort VS Vanderlai Silva…Vitor has a similar action to the Chain Punch which VT men can draw from…
Also there was some clips that had the guys tie up a bit and the attacks simmered down…where are the elbows VT men are experts at elbows !
But i guess this is a dangerous action - but its full contact ?
Nice stuff all round
Thanks for sharing
PS IM NO EXPERT
I would not agree that it looked more like boxing.
While the other guy may have supposedly had better WC form, it was obviously not working. Any one can perform the motions but they have to be used appropriately. The nature of WC is that you pay attention to what your opponent is doing. That’s much more important than looking “right”. If someone throws a punch and you ignore it, you got a good chance of getting hit.
The guy with the red gloves used his hands to defend the other guy’s punches and then punched back to the openings.
One concept that I like that relates to the above is the idea of controlling your opponents balance first before executing kicks, especially high kicks. IMO high kicking is all relative concerning the difference between your height and your opponents. Me, I’m 6’1", so kicking a 5’ guy in the head is easier and not very high for me, but someone else that is similar in height to myself would be a different story. For this I would have to lop and then kick to control the reaction of the opponent when the kick is executed. Regarding only using kicks in contact, I do believe this is a sound concept, but as with anything you can use it at will depending on your skill with it and such. In my experience only a few kicks like the front kick or low side stop kicks or low round kicks work effectively, as to actually make good contact with these other kicks is hard to do in application. But it is still good to know how to execute them to be able to help out others with defending the attack and to see the strengths/weakness in the movement itself.
Concerning the comment about the chain punching and timing, I agree totally. Timing is very important concerning the effectiveness of any application used against someone else. People are not wooden dummies, so you cannot just use a techniqe any old time. In the end timing, control of distance, and perception skills are keys to success for anyone trying to defeat another in combat.
James
Well that doesn’t sound good either. You need to have an opponent who can’t defend themselves and attacks all the time to make the art work well?
Obviously anything works great when opponents don’t actually defend and not so great when they do.
James,
I totally agree with your assessment of that clip.
There’s some other questionable activity as well, such as leaning in with the upper body to strike as opposed to stepping in with the strike and using the whole body.
Like I said earlier, it’s easy to be critical. :o
At least you James have posted clips in the past.
Cheers,
The full contact clip wityh the good punch? It looked more like boxing technique.
At my school we have 5 second and 10 second sparring so to say you are the only school doing this is clever marketing?
Also I think Mt Setters comes from Kevin Chan’s wing chun so why the William cheung style butterfly knives? If its TWC why the standard Ip Chun stlye dummy form?
its easy to criticise and opinions are like arseholes but for me many of the clips lacked free flow
its easy to do drills< sparring etc when the other person is not totally free to react
thanks for showing the clips and its always good food for thought
btw for all you uk people the second uk wing chun conference is coming off at the end of feb
more details soon
merry christmas
paul
Hey Vic!
You know, one thought that has been forming in my mind is this: Why do so many Wing Chun sparring clips look like boxing? I’m begining to think that to some extent it is because the boxing “structure” is more loosely defined than the Wing Chun “structure.” Therefore when one’s “precision” degrades somewhat when put under pressure in a sparring situation it resorts to something like a boxing structure. Why is this loose boxing “structure” the predominant thing you see in just about every form of competitive stand-up fighting such as western boxing, modern thai boxing, american kickboxing, and san shou? Maybe it is because this looser structure flows more naturally while still providing an effective platform under pressure. When it comes right down to it, performance rules over precision. So if I were looking to “evolve” my Wing Chun, I would seriously consider grafting Wing Chun in-fighting onto this “loose” boxing-like structure. Which is what I believe you are doing! Now maybe this is a heretical statement. But look at the evidence. In nearly every Wing Chun sparring clip posted, the participants do not stick to a strict Wing Chun “structure” through-out the exchange. So we have to ask…why is that? If such a large percentage of your actual sparring exchange is outside of the Wing Chun “structure”, then shouldn’t we be training that portion as much as we train the actual Wing Chun? Just a thought. And I just had another evil thought…what do you get when you graft Wing Chun hand techniques onto a boxing structure? Jeet Kune Do! :eek:
Keith