wing chun video clips

[Edmund]

@KPM

You know, one thought that has been forming in my mind is this: Why do so many Wing Chun sparring clips look like boxing?

(LOL) But they kicked!!! That’s a huge difference already. No matter how badly they did it.

A lof of fighting looks the same to the untrained eye. Everyone is throwing the same punches and kicks mostly. Straight punch, hook, uppercut, front kick, roundhouse kick. That’s a similarity between martial arts.

Now WC teachers will snow job people into thinking WC looks drastically different but we can see that it doesn’t work so good to look drastically different a lot of the times, does it? Unless it’s some fake demo.

@KPM

I’m begining to think that to some extent it is because the boxing “structure” is more loosely defined than the Wing Chun “structure.” Therefore when one’s “precision” degrades somewhat when put under pressure in a sparring situation it resorts to something like a boxing structure. Why is this loose boxing “structure” the predominant thing you see in just about every form of competitive stand-up fighting such as western boxing, modern thai boxing, american kickboxing, and san shou?

Thai boxing is not like boxing. Not even close. The techniques are too different. Thai boxing “structure” is based off applying all their techniques not just punches.

Same should apply for WC structure.

@KPM

In nearly every Wing Chun sparring clip posted, the participants do not stick to a strict Wing Chun “structure” through-out the exchange. So we have to ask…why is that? If such a large percentage of your actual sparring exchange is outside of the Wing Chun “structure”, then shouldn’t we be training that portion as much as we train the actual Wing Chun? Just a thought. And I just had another evil thought…what do you get when you graft Wing Chun hand techniques onto a boxing structure? Jeet Kune Do! :eek:

If you mean a mish mash that don’t mix, yeah!
Boxing structure is good for boxing hands. Why are you adding the crappy WC hand techniques onto it again? I don’t see why they merit being grafted. Shouldn’t you just box if it’s the largest percentage?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good post, Keith…

But I think that in the final analysis it’s all about distance.

Only at a very close range can you “square up your centerline” and use the typical wing chun structure.

But what did you use to fight your way into that very close proximity?

And what will you use if the opponent manages to force the fight to go back to a longer range?

Those are the keys questions, imo.

[couch]

@Ultimatewingchun

Good post, Keith…

But I think that in the final analysis it’s all about distance.

Only at a very close range can you “square up your centerline” and use the typical wing chun structure.

But what did you use to fight your way into that very close proximity?

And what will you use if the opponent manages to force the fight to go back to a longer range?

Those are the keys questions, imo.

This is precisely the problem I had yesterday sparring with my JiuJutsu friend. I couldn’t get inside or passed his elbows because he kept moving around and backing up. And then if by chance I got in…if I got in too close, he would clinch to takedown to rolling on the ground BJJ!

I also noticed that it just wasn’t a matter of squaring up my centreline and stepping in to striking distance…I had to get my head (and torso) inside/passed his elbows as well…which is tricky while he’s throwing a nice head-ringing hook.

It’s funny that the thread has gone this way, because this is something that I’m struggling with…Finding that balance between ranges within my Wing Chun.

Plus, I find I can’t block EVERYTHING that he’s throwing. I’m better to move around, back up, whatever…not what I’ve been taught! Always been taught to drive forward…but you should have seen my head snap back when I stepped in to close that gap.

It’s almost like I’m going more the boxing route right now while trying to adapt my Wing Chun to a sparring session.

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

[KPM]

Hey Edmund!

But they kicked!!! That’s a huge difference already. No matter how badly they did it.

—Notice I said boxing “structure”, not pure boxing. You can kick from within a boxing structure.

A lof of fighting looks the same to the untrained eye. Everyone is throwing the same punches and kicks mostly. Straight punch, hook, uppercut, front kick, roundhouse kick. That’s a similarity between martial arts.

—A lot of fighting looks the same to the TRAINED eye as well. Part of the “structure” is the engine or powerbase you are using to throw those punches and kicks you mentioned. The engine within the Wing Chun “structure” is different from the engine within the boxing “structure.”

Now WC teachers will snow job people into thinking WC looks drastically different but we can see that it doesn’t work so good to look drastically different a lot of the times, does it? Unless it’s some fake demo.

—What you are essentially saying is that it doesn’t work so good to be drastically different from that more “natural” and more “loose” boxing “structure” that I mentioned. At least not in a sparring situation. But that boxing “structure” is somewhat different than what one learns within the Wing Chun forms.

Thai boxing is not like boxing. Not even close.

—Notice I said “modern” Thai boxing. Modern Thai boxing has adopted the punching structure of modern western boxing more and more as time goes on.

Boxing structure is good for boxing hands. Why are you adding the crappy WC hand techniques onto it again? I don’t see why they merit being grafted. Shouldn’t you just box if it’s the largest percentage?

—Boxing rules dictate boxing techniques. At the in-fighting range where boxing rules disallow grabbing, grappling, and trapping is where Wing Chun would “kick in.”

Hey Victor!

But I think that in the final analysis it’s all about distance. Only at a very close range can you “square up your centerline” and use the typical wing chun structure.

—Absolutely agree! And the “grafting” that I was talking about was making that smooth transition from a “boxing” mindset to a “Wing Chun” mindset.

But what did you use to fight your way into that very close proximity?

—You just stepped into him with a Man Sau…didn’t you?!! :rolleyes:

And what will you use if the opponent manages to force the fight to go back to a longer range?

—But he won’t! Wing Chun will dominate on the inside and end the exchange within 10 secs! :eek:

Hey Couch!

It’s almost like I’m going more the boxing route right now while trying to adapt my Wing Chun to a sparring session.

—As noted in my original post…it seems that you aren’t the only one!!

Keith

[KPM]

So here’s the “dirty little secret” that a lot of Wing Chun people don’t talk about. In order to make their Wing Chun work in a sparring situation, they have to “box” with it! But the problem is that very few do it well because they don’t spend much if any training time developing the skills and attributes needed to “box” well. Instead they spend the majority of training time learning forms and doing Chi Sau. IMHO, our Wing Chun ancestors did very little if any “sparring.” That’s not to say that they didn’t go out and fight! But sparring is not fighting. As we put on protective equipment and spar, we create a new environment that forces some changes. If you try to force "traditional/original/whatever-you-want-to-call-it Wing Chun into this new environment without embracing those changes that are needed, it is never going to work well. That’s one of the reasons you don’t see Wing Chun guys excelling in combat sports…they are all a “sparring” environment.

Keith

[sihing]

@KPM

But the problem is that very few do it well because they don’t spend much if any training time developing the skills and attributes needed to “box” well. Instead they spend the majority of training time learning forms and doing Chi Sau.
Keith

This is because IMO, most WC is just this, Forms and Chi-sao. When I see people perform WC or demo it, I see exactly that, no idea what to do outside the trapping range. When we teach in our school, chi-sao is not introduced until level 2, and the emphasizes is on stance, footwork and movement. Later on the strategies of what to do when on the outside kicking range, since this is where is all starts in most cases. IMO WC has a answer to this to without having to become a boxer & learn that sweet science also.

James

[Edmund]

@KPM

—Notice I said boxing “structure”, not pure boxing. You can kick from within a boxing structure.

I can’t agree.
I think your boxing structure is not boxing structure at all. More like kickboxing.

@KPM

—What you are essentially saying is that it doesn’t work so good to be drastically different from that more “natural” and more “loose” boxing “structure” that I mentioned. At least not in a sparring situation. But that boxing “structure” is somewhat different than what one learns within the Wing Chun forms.

So because the form is a certain way, common sense flies out the window?
WC people are like robots. Any natural movement and it’s not WC.

Forms aren’t the only thing you learn.
It would be like a karateka going into horse stance and reverse punching in sparring. It wouldn’t work.

@KPM

Thai boxing is not like boxing. Not even close.

—Notice I said “modern” Thai boxing. Modern Thai boxing has adopted the punching structure of modern western boxing more and more as time goes on.

No. Thai boxing adopted boxing hands and kept Thai boxing structure which is the complete opposite to what you have said.

They’ve got to deliver a kick or a knee or elbow or clinching. Boxers don’t.
They’ve got to be ready to defend a kick or a knee or elbow or clinching. Boxers don’t. When you don’t have to do all those things, why would you move the same way?

Look at how Thai’s train and how the rules of the sport are structured. It’s more geared towards a real fight because of how they allow these other techniques.

Because of that, it’s not even close to boxing.

@KPM

—Boxing rules dictate boxing techniques. At the in-fighting range where boxing rules disallow grabbing, grappling, and trapping is where Wing Chun would “kick in.”

Funny, why haven’t we seen any clips where all this trapping is “kicking in”?
What’s stopping them? That large percentage of time where it’s supposedly inapplicable?

Actually they were getting plenty close enough to do it in those clips. How much further “in” do you need? They were completely in your in-fighting range on a lot of occasions (maybe they took a weak kick on the stomach getting there). Any closer and they’d be doing some man-love. But there’s no need to trap when the opponent can’t get their hand in between your punch and their head.

And when you can’t get your hand between their punch and your head… well what can you say. How’s that good WC at all?

[Matrix]

@couch

This is precisely the problem I had yesterday sparring with my JiuJutsu friend. I couldn’t get inside or passed his elbows because he kept moving around and backing up.

Why are you trying to get inside or passed his elbows when he still has his balance? Are you trying to re-enact ‘the Charge of the Light Brigade’?
You’re looking to hit him and he’s standing there on a solid base with a loaded canon. I don’t like the odds.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey Kenton..lots to talk about!

“This is precisely the problem I had yesterday sparring with my JiuJutsu friend. I couldn’t get inside or passed his elbows because he kept moving around and backing up. And then if by chance I got in…if I got in too close, he would clinch to takedown to rolling on the ground BJJ!”

***IN MY OPINION, the best way to go is to punch/kick your way in with boxing type straight leads, low front kicks, low roundhouse kicks - and other “boxing/kickboxing type moves” until you’ve got limb-to-limb contact (unless you’ve already knocked him down with one of your punches or kicks )…and then use your wing chun infighting strikes/traps/sweeps, etc.

As to getting inside his elbows…if he’s preventing that then work from outside his leading elbow - but always trying to stick and pressure in order to take his space away - while hitting without getting hit back - if possible.

If he goes for a takedown - you need to develop some solid wrestling sprawls and other anti-takedown moves - as well as some wrestling/grappling pummeling to clinch…and some nice Thai elbows and knees from the clinch could be a welcome addition to your arsenal also.

…

“I also noticed that it just wasn’t a matter of squaring up my centreline and stepping in to striking distance…I had to get my head (and torso) inside/passed his elbows as well…which is tricky while he’s throwing a nice head-ringing hook.”

***YOU SHOULD LOOK INTO the use of sidestepping with biu/lop against hook punches (as it is found in TWC).

…

“It’s funny that the thread has gone this way, because this is something that I’m struggling with…Finding that balance between ranges within my Wing Chun.”

***WELCOME TO THE CLUB!
Hint: Wing Chun is a close range striking/kicking art - and very little else. (See above about the longer ranges).

…

“Plus, I find I can’t block EVERYTHING that he’s throwing. I’m better to move around, back up, whatever…not what I’ve been taught! Always been taught to drive forward…but you should have seen my head snap back when I stepped in to close that gap.”

***TWO THINGS about this, imo…Learn to watch the elbows and knees and you’ll get hit less - and forget all the B.S. about never moving back.

…

“It’s almost like I’m going more the boxing route right now while trying to adapt my Wing Chun to a sparring session.”

***A BOXING FRAMEWORK (along with low kicks) as a delivery system for your close range wing chun is the way to go, imo.

And speaking of that, KPM/Keith had this to say:

“So here’s the ‘dirty little secret’ that a lot of Wing Chun people don’t talk about. In order to make their Wing Chun work in a sparring situation, they have to ‘box’ with it! But the problem is that very few do it well because they don’t spend much if any training time developing the skills and attributes needed to ‘box’ well. Instead they spend the majority of training time learning forms and doing Chi Sau.”

***ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ON THE MONEY!

…

"IMHO, our Wing Chun ancestors did very little if any ‘sparring.’ That’s not to say that they didn’t go out and fight! But sparring is not fighting. As we put on protective equipment and spar, we create a new environment that forces some changes. If you try to force "traditional/original/whatever-you-want-to-call-it Wing Chun into this new environment without embracing those changes that are needed, it is never going to work well. That’s one of the reasons you don’t see Wing Chun guys excelling in combat sports…they are all a ‘sparring’ environment.

***BINGO AGAIN! (This guy’s on a roll. )

But here comes his best stuff:

“Why is this loose boxing ‘structure’ the predominant thing you see in just about every form of competitive stand-up fighting such as western boxing, modern thai boxing, american kickboxing, and san shou? Maybe it is because this looser structure flows more naturally while still providing an effective platform under pressure. When it comes right down to it, performance rules over precision.”

***IT’S ABOUT THE FLOW. Real fighting/sparring is about constant movement..give-and-take…in-and-out…side-to-side…always looking for angles to go in and attack on. And if you’re a wing chun guy - you stay in and go forward as long as you can - but always remain ready to let that strategy go if you’re no longer in the very close range - or if you don’t have enough control over his ability to strike/kick/grab your body.

And as for going in with “mon sao”…forget it.

Go in with longer range straight lead punches like boxers do - rotating the lead shoulder, and the hip, pushing off the feet with a little bounce in your step, etc. (Maybe even an occasional lead hook punch, a rear cross, a straight lead/rear cross combo, etc.)

In other words, learn a little boxing!

[Phil_Redmond]

@Sekabin

. . . . .
2. Were you putting ‘deliberate mistakes’ in the knife form just in case someone tries to steal your techniques? . . . . .

That BJD form on that site was a “VERY” rough version of the TWC BJD form. The sequences or almost the same. He had to have learned it from a TWC source.
Phil

[Kassandra]

Define “very rough?”

[Sekabin]

@Phil Redmond

That BJD form on that site was a “VERY” rough version of the TWC BJD form. The sequences or almost the same. He had to have learned it from a TWC source.
Phil

Thanks a lot Phil. Is the jumping bit also in the TWC form? I have to say I was a bit surprised by that.

[Sekabin]

@Ultimatewingchun

Go in with longer range straight lead punches like boxers do - rotating the lead shoulder, and the hip, pushing off the feet with a little bounce in your step, etc. (Maybe even an occasional lead hook punch, a rear cross, a straight lead/rear cross combo, etc.)

In other words, learn a little boxing!

I’m sure this has been discussed before, but I can’t find it. What does going in with lead punches like boxers do that a WC punch that rotates the hip doesn’t? Is it ‘extra’ protection with the elbow out that you’re looking for?

[Phil_Redmond]

@Kassandra

Define “very rough?”

That’s a hard one.
I didn’t mean to disparage the man doing the form. Maybe I could have chosen better wording. Very rough is my politically correct version. I’ll leave it at that. I base my observation on having practiced the form since the 80’s, having had numerous private lessons with my Sifu, and having two of my students who are now Sifus themselves, successfully pass the BJD form in front of Sifu William Cheung.
Phil

[Phil_Redmond]

@Sekabin

Thanks a lot Phil. Is the jumping bit also in the TWC form? I have to say I was a bit surprised by that.

Yes, that evasive movement IS part of the TWC BJD form. You can see William Cheung perform the form with applications in the Black Belt magazine video series. If you’d like, email me at sifupr@wingchunkwoon.com and I can send you a clip of a student doing the form.
Phil

[Kassandra]

@Phil Redmond

Yes, that evasive movement IS part of the TWC BJD form. You can see William Cheung perform the form with applications in the Black Belt magazine video series. If you’d like, email me at sifupr@wingchunkwoon.com and I can send you a clip of a student doing the form.
Phil

You see, this is why I asked. I’ve got a few of those videos, and form looks exactly the same to me (and lets face it, its a lot more impressive than the Ip Chun version).

Unless there’s something I missed of course.

More to the point - what’s wrong with this form?

Nothing would be my guess.

[Ultimatewingchun]

“I’m sure this has been discussed before, but I can’t find it. What does going in with lead punches like boxers do that a WC punch that rotates the hip doesn’t? Is it ‘extra’ protection with the elbow out that you’re looking for?” (Sekabin)

***THE BOXING PUNCH provides a longer reach (and therefore covers more distance) due to the shoulder and hip rotating forward - and the bounce/spring off from the rear foot.

Different mechanics than the wing chun structure way of delivering punches…and faster*, more mobile, and easier to retract the whole body after throwing a punch (all very important factors when trying to fight your way in safely from longer ranges).

• Now before anyone takes me to task about the speed of wing chun punches - they need to understand that I’m talking about the speed used/needed to get in (and out) from a longer range…I’m not talking about the actual speed that each individual SHORT RANGE wing chun punch can be thrown with.

[Phil_Redmond]

@Kassandra

You see, this is why I asked. I’ve got a few of those videos, and form looks exactly the same to me (and lets face it, its a lot more impressive than the Ip Chun version).

Unless there’s something I missed of course.

More to the point - what’s wrong with this form?

Nothing would be my guess.

The form sequence is somewhat correct. The positions would not pass a TWC test.
I’d have to elaborate at a later date. I sent a clip to Sekabin showing the way it should be done. Maybe he can see the differences. But the bottom line is when fighting with or against an edged weapon there can be no mistakes.
Phil

[Kassandra]

Well, Sifu Redmond, I would hazard that that is up for debate. I certainly haven’t sat in on any TWC exams, so I’m not qualified to comment. According to WC archives, Setters is 4th Gen Yip Man, via Ip Chun and Kevin Chan, so evidently he knows his stuff. However, this is the Cheung form, not the Chun one!

That said, I would like to thank you for your forthright honesty; evidently you are qualified to comment on the form and your criticisms are for the most part constructive. Which is all that the poster asked for.

I am certainly impressed that you have not indulged in the usual WC slagging (“his master is rubbish, mine’s better”) nonsense, but as you are a Sifu of some 20 years, I can’t imagine that any of that is news to you.

Also, I see that dissecting the combat side of things is beneath you; as you know, watching the match after the event having not played in it – it’s easy to pick it apart.

White Lotus at least “show and tell.” This is what they do and they’ll show it. And I don’t think they’re professing to be the best fighters in the world – they’re teaching their students how to fight. A big difference.

Something I think that many of the posters on this forum are incapable of comprehending – or at least, conscientiously incapable. As I noted in a previous post (which has been roundly slaughtered to my amusement), it is the Dim Mak of Wing Chunners to say anything good about any other practitioners. So, I guess, there’s a small challenge for you.

As a 20 year Sifu, did you find anything of merit, relevance, effectiveness or positive in the (I think) 14 videos displayed on that website. I hate to but I have to qualify (because of the nerds) – I don’t mean “oh, well he could have slipped the punch and unleashed “this” devastating technique (“this” being whatever **** the IW wants to make up at the time). I’m thinking more of the package.

Personally, I’d say I’m really impressed. The website is slick, it gives credentials, shows what it preaches and gives no bull****. I’d be interested to hear your take, Sifu.

[Sekabin]

@Phil Redmond

The form sequence is somewhat correct. The positions would not pass a TWC test.
I’d have to elaborate at a later date. I sent a clip to Sekabin showing the way it should be done. Maybe he can see the differences. But the bottom line is when fighting with or against an edged weapon there can be no mistakes.
Phil

Phil sent me the clip and after viewing it I can tell you that the version on the site that started this thread is downright sloppy compared to the clip I’ve seen. Phil’s point that there can’t be any mistakes is spot on - each move should be ‘there’ when it needs to and the transitions should be there too. Sadly, they weren’t in the site’s clip (but were in the clip Phil sent). There appeared to be more rooting directly after the leaps too.