Ive had the bennifit of experiencing alot of the techs through people i know and there are many similarities in strategy and mechanics of VT even though the training is vastly different. Its brutal but effective and what you see is rather tame for TV.
DREW[/QUOTE]
While my time in the military was devoted to more “long range” action, as some here know ;), I had many chances to train with some of the elite guys in H2H, not only here in Canada, but some British SAS and a few Spec Ops guys too, durning “exchange programs”.
There is a reason that the military bring in or go out to, civilian instructors, H2H is just not that big a priority that it is trained to the high level that civilians do it.
There is a lot of brutal stuff that is taught, heck I have a few coup-de-grace that if I shoudl you, most would **** your pants, its quote irrelevant though.
Core skills is what makes you able to apply the “too deadly” and if you have those core skills, the “too deadly” becomes somewhat irrelevant.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;953369]There are no reservations, Dale has ZERO to prove to anyone, those of us who have been here long enough know that Dale talks the talks and he walks the walk.
I have seen his clips, grappling, MMA and stick fighting and I have also been told by those I have a great respect for that the man knows his ****.
He’s an original Dog Brother for pete’s sake !
Just that alone puts him in a class all his own on this forum.[/QUOTE]
Granted.
Now, what is his experience with Wing Chun?
How many years, and under whom?
[QUOTE=TenTigers;953374]Granted.
Now, what is his experience with Wing Chun?
How many years, and under whom?[/QUOTE]
I don’t know but since his critique of WC is based on its effectiveness as a fighting method and the results of its training methods, I don’t know how much that matters.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;953385]I don’t know but since his critique of WC is based on its effectiveness as a fighting method and the results of its training methods, I don’t know how much that matters.[/QUOTE]
Actually, isn’t his “critique of WC” really based on his inability to use it effectively when fighting? That in no way is a critique of the WCK system itself, just either his (in)experience with it, or a question of his teacher’s ability to impart fighting skill (or both).
That’s like someone that has a 0-10 record as an amature boxer saying boxing training methods don’t work. Just because a fighting method can’t be made to work by one individual, it doesn’t mean that there is something wrong with the system.
So maybe it would be better put as “his critique of WC is based on his effectiveness in using it as a fighting method and the results of his training methods”
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;953386]Actually, isn’t his “critique of WC” really based on his inability to use it effectively when fighting? That in no way is a critique of the WCK system itself, just either his (in)experience with it, or a question of his teacher’s ability to impart fighting skill (or both).
That’s like someone that has a 0-10 record as an amature boxer saying boxing training methods don’t work. Just because a fighting method can’t be made to work by one individual, it doesn’t mean that there is something wrong with the system.
So maybe it would be better put as “his critique of WC is based on his effectiveness in using it as a fighting method and the results of his training methods”[/QUOTE]
Actually I think his critique is based on the fact that he has never seen/felt effective WC.
But I won’t speak for Dale, he certainly doesn’t need me or anyone too, as we know, LOL !
Of course instead of attack him you can attack his view point and produce evidence of how effective WC is, that oughta shut him up.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;953370]
There is a reason that the military bring in or go out to, civilian instructors, H2H is just not that big a priority that it is trained to the high level that civilians do it..[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
The fact is, since 99.9% of what military personnel do is not CQC related, 99.9% of their training time will be spent doing other types of training.
Military personnel spend more time running than they do doing CQC training, and in no way, shape or form can they compete with competitive civilian runners who spend much more time doing running training. If they aren’t as good in something they spend more of their time doing, they’re not, somehow, going to be better in something they spend even less time doing.
To think that a military training makes someone an awesome CQC fighter just shows how out of touch with reality the theoretical, pretend, non-fighters are.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;953387]Actually I think his critique is based on the fact that he has never seen/felt effective WC.
But I won’t speak for Dale, he certainly doesn’t need me or anyone too, as we know, LOL !
Of course instead of attack him you can attack his view point and produce evidence of how effective WC is, that oughta shut him up.
:D[/QUOTE]
My critique is based on anything for which posters make claims for, yet can provide no evidence for.
Notice how I have never made negative comments for any clips that have shown live fighting against other fully resisting opponents. If anything, I have given props to the WC guys doing the fighting on the clips, while several of the pretend, theoretical, non-fighting WC people have torn them down.
As far as my clips, I put them up to show good faith when several other posters said they would be willing to put up clips of themselves doing techniques they said were realistic against resisting opponents, which never happened… hmmm, what a surprise.
Over the years, I am one of the only four posters here who have put up clips of themselves actually fighting full contact against resisting opponents.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;953387]Actually I think his critique is based on the fact that he has never seen/felt effective WC.
But I won’t speak for Dale, he certainly doesn’t need me or anyone too, as we know, LOL !
Of course instead of attack him you can attack his view point and produce evidence of how effective WC is, that oughta shut him up.
:D[/QUOTE]
haha, well, no one is speaking for him here… except you and T (just friendly jabbing at ya)
FWIW, I’m not attacking him at all, just making a distinction between someone openly admitting they couldn’t make WCK work and them saying that WCK doesn’t work - there’s a difference. One doesn’t equal the other..
As far as me producing evidence to Dale, what do suggest, I post up some videos of me taking out a bunch of MMA guys? Sure, I’ll get right on that - I care that much what he thinks
Besides, what’s the point? I think his mind is more than made up.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;953399]
FWIW, I’m not attacking him at all, just making a distinction between someone openly admitting they couldn’t make WCK work and them saying that WCK doesn’t work - [/QUOTE]
I never said no one can make it work. A few people obviously are. My claim is that the majority of people who think they can make it work for real are as deluded as the students of the chi master.
As far as me producing evidence to Dale, what do suggest, I post up some videos of me taking out a bunch of MMA guys? Sure, I’ll get right on that - I care that much what he thinks
You care enough to make posts about it. Why just not do a quick clip of you fighting full contact against other resisting opponents?
Besides, what’s the point? I think his mind is more than made up.
My mind’s not “made up”. I was skeptical about Alan and his guys, but I’m pretty sure they are making things work, despite what I originally thought.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;953374]Granted.
Now, what is his experience with Wing Chun?
How many years, and under whom?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;953386]Actually, isn’t his “critique of WC” really based on his inability to use it effectively when fighting? That in no way is a critique of the WCK system itself, just either his (in)experience with it, or a question of his teacher’s ability to impart fighting skill (or both).
That’s like someone that has a 0-10 record as an amature boxer saying boxing training methods don’t work. Just because a fighting method can’t be made to work by one individual, it doesn’t mean that there is something wrong with the system.
So maybe it would be better put as “his critique of WC is based on his effectiveness in using it as a fighting method and the results of his training methods”[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;953370] I had many chances to train with some of the elite guys in H2H, not only here in Canada, but some British SAS and a few Spec Ops guys too, durning “exchange programs”.
There is a reason that the military bring in or go out to, civilian instructors, H2H is just not that big a priority that it is trained to the high level that civilians do it.[/QUOTE]
I hear you, but there in lies my point. They go to outside people for further training, whats in that vid is the beggining of a long road of consistent training.
The people whom ive experienced these types of training through do not do a starter course and stop. In thier down time they train like and with civies…they go to competency courses often to pass through first second and third phases of training. And the Civies in my country that teach CQB to the pros are ex millitary ex police people themselves.
Im not trying to dictate here, just offer my experience and im ligitimatly interested, which is why i asked Dale if he milled or just rolled in training with these people, because we know there is a difference right ?
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;953370]
There is a lot of brutal stuff that is taught, heck I have a few coup-de-grace that if I shoudl you, most would **** your pants, its quote irrelevant though. [/QUOTE]
Oh, now i want to hear about it Paul
Ive seen some brutal stuff myself - if Occupational health and safety saw half the things i saw least of which milling with guys getting knee stomped then repetitive stomps to the head all the while the insructor yelling “get the f-uck up” they would probably faint. LOL
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;953370]
Core skills is what makes you able to apply the “too deadly” and if you have those core skills, the “too deadly” becomes somewhat irrelevant. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;953386]Actually, isn’t his “critique of WC” really based on his inability to use it effectively when fighting? That in no way is a critique of the WCK system itself, just either his (in)experience with it, or a question of his teacher’s ability to impart fighting skill (or both).
That’s like someone that has a 0-10 record as an amature boxer saying boxing training methods don’t work. Just because a fighting method can’t be made to work by one individual, it doesn’t mean that there is something wrong with the system.
So maybe it would be better put as “his critique of WC is based on his effectiveness in using it as a fighting method and the results of his training methods”[/QUOTE]
But if someone does critique amateur boxing based on their inability to make it work you can shut them up with hundreds of examples of people making it work. Why can’t people shut Dale up simply by showing him it is a valid fighting method? If only a few schools can be seen making the system work then isn’t his criticism of the system and its training methods valid?
Oh, now i want to hear about it Paul
Ive seen some brutal stuff myself - if Occupational health and safety saw half the things i saw least of which milling with guys getting knee stomped then repetitive stomps to the head all the while the insructor yelling “get the f-uck up” they would probably faint. LOL
[/QUOTE]
Nah, you really don’t, LOL !
Killing is not like the movies that’s why when people start mentioning that they’d do this and that, I kind of just roll my eyes and say “whatever”.
Killing is messy and you kave to l ive with it, forever and answer for it.
But I digress, the point being that if you can’t do the simplest of things ( The core) well, then forget that "too deadly"crap.
[QUOTE=Frost;953639]But if someone does critique amateur boxing based on their inability to make it work you can shut them up with hundreds of examples of people making it work. Why can’t people shut Dale up simply by showing him it is a valid fighting method? If only a few schools can be seen making the system work then isn’t his criticism of the system and its training methods valid?[/QUOTE]
He says that few people can actually make WCK work, how does he know? Has he trained with or watched every WCK pracitioner spar or train? of course not! His opinion is only based on his own inabilities to make WCK work, which is totally fair. I have no issues with that.
I agree though, maybe he can’t find good examples with what’s on the internet. And I might agree with him, maybe there isn’t a whole lot of good examples to be found there. But, that’s not all wck. And is it really on us to prove to him anyway? Or anyone? Who is he anyway? Just some guy that couldn’t make his own WCK work and went and trained some other stuff. And I give him props for going out and fighting like he has. But not everyone here shares his opinion that WCK suck. Since he’s not a WCK guy, why is he even here? Is he trying to save us all? haha
Or maybe he’s just a troll..
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;953403]I never said no one can make it work. A few people obviously are. My claim is that the majority of people who think they can make it work for real are as deluded as the students of the chi master.[/QUOTE]
Ok, you’ve made your claim (for the bazillionth time), now what?
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;953403]You care enough to make posts about it. Why just not do a quick clip of you fighting full contact against other resisting opponents?
My mind’s not “made up”. I was skeptical about Alan and his guys, but I’m pretty sure they are making things work, despite what I originally thought.[/QUOTE]
Haha, what’s a clip going to prove to you? Why should I have to prove anything to you anyway? Who are you? I put in my work, I prove things out to myself, I don’t need an ego boost by trying to show someone else how great I think I am.
But, I respect the fact that you’re mind isn’t totally made up. Maybe you stay on these WCK threads because you are holding onto a bit of hope that you might find a way to make WCK work for you.
i dont have sound at work and was just curious what you guys think of this match. also who is the wing chun fighter here, and what wing chun technique does he utilize in this match?
(just friendly jabbing at ya)
