Wing Chun in US Military

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

[QUOTE=Pacman;953196]although ground fighting skills are important, one has to remember that when fighting multiple opponents going to the ground is something to be avoided.

i would assume that this can often be the case when fighting in the military or law enforcement[/QUOTE]
not to mention falling and grappling of a nice comfy mat hurts like hell, they person can bite you, scratch you, or pull out a weapon and attack you with it. have one of their freinds attack you when your on the ground et etc graplling in a street fight isnt a smart thing to do

22

LOL… and the three clueless, theoretical, pretend, non-fighters post once again.

Considering the fact that I used to train with the Seals and the Rangers when they would come into the Gracie academy, I have a pretty good idea of what’s what.

23

[QUOTE=Pacman;953196]although ground fighting skills are important, one has to remember that when fighting multiple opponents going to the ground is something to be avoided.

i would assume that this can often be the case when fighting in the military or law enforcement[/QUOTE]
Can you keep multiple opponents from taking you to the ground?

24

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;953209]LOL… and the three clueless, theoretical, pretend, non-fighters post once again.

Considering the fact that I used to train with the Seals and the Rangers when they would come into the Gracie academy, I have a pretty good idea of what’s what.[/QUOTE]

So what Branch of the Service where you in again???

Also, are you going to say that in a real combat situation with the potential for multiple, armed opponents that BJJ is the art of choice???

Oh, what was your MMA record again? Perhaps you are the clueless one, had three fights and lost 1 and one draw, right? And the one you won was by decision so you must have really been intimidating in the ring. Why not fight again and show all of us clueless, theoretical pretend non-fighters just how much you know. I mean with the way you post here I was expecting a few more wins under your belt.

Oh, as to your training with Rangers and Seals where was this located? Since there are two active Ranger Battalions in the U.S. Army and neither is located in CA, one is at Camp Stewert, GA and the other is at Fort Lewis, WA. I highly doubt your claim to have trained with Rangers, at least. Perhaps you have some video to prove your claim. :smiley:

25

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;953211]Can you keep multiple opponents from taking you to the ground?[/QUOTE]

Apparently you like being on the ground, it seems to be your arena of choice:eek:

Are you saying you trained yourself to roll with multiple guys???:smiley:

26

[QUOTE=Sihing73;953212]Oh, what was your MMA record again? [/QUOTE]
7-3.
What was your record. Oh that’s right. The big tough guy only beat up drunks and handcuffed guys… who knows how many women he assaulted on his watch.

Oh, as to your training with Rangers and Seals where was this located? Since there are two active Ranger Battalions in the U.S. Army and neither is located in CA, one is at Camp Stewert, GA and the other is at Fort Lewis, WA.

Yep, GA and WA was where they flew in from.
Here’s a list of the other agencies that used to come in when I trained there:
http://www.gracieacademy.com/military_clients.asp

27

[QUOTE=Sihing73;953212] Also, are you going to say that in a real combat situation with the potential for multiple, armed opponents that BJJ is the art of choice???[/QUOTE]
Apparently the Rangers seem to think so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaafCFGDZ5c

But of course some clueless, theoretical, non-fighter like you thinks he knows better.

The more you guys post the more clueless you prove yourselves to be.

28

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;953209]LOL… and the three clueless, theoretical, pretend, non-fighters post once again.

Considering the fact that I used to train with the Seals and the Rangers when they would come into the Gracie academy, I have a pretty good idea of what’s what.[/QUOTE]

You and i touched on this a while back when you said they wernt so good on the ground… did you actually do combat milling with them Dale. Don a head guard and lock horns or just roll in a BJJ school ? There is a big difference if you really have done it :rolleyes:

In my country they have adopted the C Q ‘B’ system developed in the seventies by the brits. Our SAS AOS(swat) STG etc all do it. Never seen the CQC system.

And if we are to belive you and T about you can only fight how you train. The intensity these guys train at in CQB would give any BJJ BB big trouble. They have what i call the mungrel in them which is way more dangerous than the best technique out there IME.

This whole thread has become d i c k measuring. LOL

DREW

29

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;953215]Apparently the Rangers seem to think so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaafCFGDZ5c

But of course some clueless, theoretical, non-fighter like you thinks he knows better.

The more you guys post the more clueless you prove yourselves to be.[/QUOTE]

Of course not Dale, of course you know much better than I. :o

7-3 funny I found the following links which do not seem to show that record.

http://www.mmapools.com/fighterinfo.php?id=12199

http://www.topgunmma.com/viewFighter.php?fighterid=2263

Could you kindly point me in the direction showing your 7-3 record?

Kind of like Paul Vunak also trained Navy Seals, Duncan Leong, Leung Ting and William Cheung also have trained various military and Law Enforcement agencies as well also several other artists, even many <gasp> WC instructors as well as other arts.

Heck Leo Gaje and Leung Ting have trained, and Leo continues to train, active military units in the Phillipines. Know something funny, they actually use that training in combat, for real. I wonder why they don’t do BJJ down there where they would want the best. :confused:Maybe you could go down there and train them, you know show them how it should really be done. I may be able to arrange an introduction to Leo, oh wait you were a “Dog Brother” so I am sure you already know Leo, right? :wink:

A lot of those doing training like to name drop, if someone, even on their own time, comes in and trains and they are a member of some “agency” then the claim to fame is there as well.

Could you perhaps provide some sort of documentation from the Military confirming the fact that you trained with anyone in the Rangers? Shoot, Paul Vunak has a letter from the military, so you should be able to dig one up easily. Perhaps PhotoShop could be your new friend. :stuck_out_tongue:

30

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;953163]Since it’s up here, in the first video, can someone explain the intent/mechanics in these actions? I don’t mean any offence, but it looks like a lot of chasing hands to me - it seems there is no fwd intent in those tan saus on the first link.
Can even see it in the first link about 4 seconds in where he totally misses her arm/wrist.

JP[/QUOTE]

He’s explaining that the trajectory of the Tan Sao (specifically, from section 3 of Siu Lum Tao) crosses over the center line. Contrary to chasing hands, he is actually covering a large area so that regardless of where her vector of attack, he is picking it up. We can tell that this is the intent of his lesson since from :10 - :14, he shows that if the Tan does not cross center, it will not cover the attack.

From what I gather from his body language after missing the attack at :04, I would guess that she was not aiming at his center? Even so, he does redirect her attack, albeit with his fingers :stuck_out_tongue: And his fingers are very very tough, I’ve seen him dent a thin metal door with a Biu Jee form flick before. But probably not as good for those of us with not-so-tough fingers.

31

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;953209]LOL… and the three clueless, theoretical, pretend, non-fighters post once again.

Considering the fact that I used to train with the Seals and the Rangers when they would come into the Gracie academy, I have a pretty good idea of what’s what.[/QUOTE]
uh huh sure you did

32

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;953214]7-3.
What was your record. Oh that’s right. The big tough guy only beat up drunks and handcuffed guys… who knows how many women he assaulted on his watch.

Yep, GA and WA was where they flew in from.
Here’s a list of the other agencies that used to come in when I trained there:
http://www.gracieacademy.com/military_clients.asp[/QUOTE]
seven three ahahahahhahahaha you lost almost half as many as you won
sheeeeesh this guy
all he is a is abjj black belt and he thinks that means he knows everything about everything
stick to grappling buddy thats all you know

33

[QUOTE=Sihing73;953227]Of course not Dale, of course you know much better than I. :o

7-3 funny I found the following links which do not seem to show that record.

http://www.mmapools.com/fighterinfo.php?id=12199

http://www.topgunmma.com/viewFighter.php?fighterid=2263

Could you kindly point me in the direction showing your 7-3 record?

Kind of like Paul Vunak also trained Navy Seals, Duncan Leong, Leung Ting and William Cheung also have trained various military and Law Enforcement agencies as well also several other artists, even many <gasp> WC instructors as well as other arts.

Heck Leo Gaje and Leung Ting have trained, and Leo continues to train, active military units in the Phillipines. Know something funny, they actually use that training in combat, for real. I wonder why they don’t do BJJ down there where they would want the best. :confused:Maybe you could go down there and train them, you know show them how it should really be done. I may be able to arrange an introduction to Leo, oh wait you were a “Dog Brother” so I am sure you already know Leo, right? :wink:

A lot of those doing training like to name drop, if someone, even on their own time, comes in and trains and they are a member of some “agency” then the claim to fame is there as well.

Could you perhaps provide some sort of documentation from the Military confirming the fact that you trained with anyone in the Rangers? Shoot, Paul Vunak has a letter from the military, so you should be able to dig one up easily. Perhaps PhotoShop could be your new friend. :p[/QUOTE]
yeah thats what you want to do in a real combat situation put him in the amr bar until he taps and the ref stops you
oh wait

34

[QUOTE=aelward;953230]He’s explaining that the trajectory of the Tan Sao (specifically, from section 3 of Siu Lum Tao) crosses over the center line. Contrary to chasing hands, he is actually covering a large area so that regardless of where her vector of attack, he is picking it up. We can tell that this is the intent of his lesson since from :10 - :14, he shows that if the Tan does not cross center, it will not cover the attack.

From what I gather from his body language after missing the attack at :04, I would guess that she was not aiming at his center? Even so, he does redirect her attack, albeit with his fingers :stuck_out_tongue: And his fingers are very very tough, I’ve seen him dent a thin metal door with a Biu Jee form flick before. But probably not as good for those of us with not-so-tough fingers.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the reply!
I guess I see taan used quite differently. If I understand the function of taan correctly, it’s used for dispersing the energy of a more straighline punch and should I] not[/I] leave the center of the body. Gate theory would suggest I change my facing when I redirect the punch so my taan is still on center of my body. This allows me to use my whole body to redirect and I can still transfer the energy down to my root throught the elbow. And this will then set my other hand in good position/range on the original CL and also strike if in the opponent really commited to the first punch.

The way it looked in the video, he was moving the attack asside with his arm, and, as you said, leaving center with the taan. Even in the begining of the form, taan goes fwd, not sideways. If it’s going sideways, it still could be seen as chasing hands. And, if you are doing that, you are going to have a good chance to miss the punch if it’s fast (like in the vid, and it was kinda slow). If it’s intent was “covering a large area so that regardless of where her vector of attack, he is picking it up” then shouldn’t he had intercepted her punch at :04 even if her punch wasn’t down center?

Anyway, I’ve seen it used like this before and was confused as to what the intent was, thanks for sharing!

JP

35

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;953130]Yeah, the army and marines sure are experts at fighting without guns… they get a total of about a week or two of CQC training. Of course in your world of children black belts, that makes someone an expert.[/QUOTE]

I am speechless.

36

Modern combatives is a combination of BJJ, MT and FMA.
This is what is taught to probably 90% of all US military units.
The elite units sometimes send out guys to get extra training from specialised civilian sources, typically the ones that have proven themselves in full contact fighting, guys like the Gracies and Machados from BJJ, Guys like Marc Denny of the Dog Brothers and things along those lines.
Sambo is another system, along with Judo that also gets some attention.

37

Pick this vid up…

…at 2:15 and watch from there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEHo4l0ucmY

38

What’s your point Victor?

39

On a side note it shoudl be mentioned that MANY have taught H2H and Close combat to the SF of the US military, some that come to mind:
Jerry Peterson - SCARS
Frank Cucci
Paul Vunak ( at least through his students, don’t recall if he trained any directly)
and others like I mentioned before.

Typically how it works is that a “drill instructor” goes out and gets qualified on a given course and coems back and teaches his unit, the results are evaluated and it is either dropped or kept with the usual modifications.

40

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;953254]Thanks for the reply!
I guess I see taan used quite differently. If I understand the function of taan correctly, it’s used for dispersing the energy of a more straighline punch and should I] not[/I] leave the center of the body. Gate theory would suggest I change my facing when I redirect the punch so my taan is still on center of my body. This allows me to use my whole body to redirect and I can still transfer the energy down to my root throught the elbow. And this will then set my other hand in good position/range on the original CL and also strike if in the opponent really commited to the first punch.

The way it looked in the video, he was moving the attack asside with his arm, and, as you said, leaving center with the taan. Even in the begining of the form, taan goes fwd, not sideways. If it’s going sideways, it still could be seen as chasing hands. And, if you are doing that, you are going to have a good chance to miss the punch if it’s fast (like in the vid, and it was kinda slow). If it’s intent was “covering a large area so that regardless of where her vector of attack, he is picking it up” then shouldn’t he had intercepted her punch at :04 even if her punch wasn’t down center?

Anyway, I’ve seen it used like this before and was confused as to what the intent was, thanks for sharing!

JP[/QUOTE]

A couple of years ago, I swore I would never get into a technical discussion online again, but here I go… :stuck_out_tongue:

In our SLT, we have three different Tan Saos. The one you refer to is in section one, during the Tan-Fook-Wu, and is used as you describe.

The one in the video is from part two of section three-- where you see a lot of variation among Yip Man sub-lineages, with some schools doing a tan-jum, others doing tan-gang, and yet others doing tan-jum-gang. Sifu Lo’s does the latter of the three. These motions cover a large area and are used to take attacks off center to the outside.

The third Tan Sao is in section three, coming after Bong Sao, where the elbow sinks-- the corresponding whip causes the Tan sao to rise, cover the head, and guide an attack downward.

As for the sequence at :04, who can say for sure? People are fallible, right? I’m just guessing based on his body language.