[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;860370]I am pretty sure that when some one mentions “forms” that they are referring to pre-arranged/determined choreographed set moves done into the air.
No one has issues or questions the value of the “form” a technique takes when it is being applied properly.[/QUOTE]
If that were true- this thread wouldn’t exist. 
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;860370]I am pretty sure that when some one mentions “forms” that they are referring to pre-arranged/determined choreographed set moves done into the air.
No one has issues or questions the value of the “form” a technique takes when it is being applied properly.[/QUOTE]
maybe so, but I think that somehow there is a disconnect because people also seem to attach having to use the exact sequence as tha bad part for some reason.
yes, a form is a prearranged sequence. But it is made up of bits and pieces and strung together so that movement can take place logically and without interrupting practice.
the form itself is 2 parts +3 parts +1part +1part + 4 part +2parts and so on.
depending on how you learn it, you will pull those parts out at some time and drill them into mitts on bags, in the air and use it in si yao da/ san da in your school.
If you neglect the whole of the martial art you are studying, then you are only getting part of a martial art. IE: if all you have is form, well, to me, that’s better than nothing at all and it at the very least gives you a good starting point to move onto the oter parts of training that you may not have experienced such as mitts , bags, sparring, competition fighting, combat.
besides, when we fight, who here does a form while fighting? anyone? I know I don’t, but I really honestly make my best attempts at using what I have and lots of it was contained in forms i learned over the years.
Im not a pro fighter, I don’t even fight amateur anymore. So that at least puts me in the same category as 99.999 of everyone on every martial arts message board out there. 
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;860376]maybe so, but I think that somehow there is a disconnect because people also seem to attach having to use the exact sequence as tha bad part for some reason.
yes, a form is a prearranged sequence. But it is made up of bits and pieces and strung together so that movement can take place logically and without interrupting practice.
the form itself is 2 parts +3 parts +1part +1part + 4 part +2parts and so on.
depending on how you learn it, you will pull those parts out at some time and drill them into mitts on bags, in the air and use it in si yao da/ san da in your school.
If you neglect the whole of the martial art you are studying, then you are only getting part of a martial art. IE: if all you have is form, well, to me, that’s better than nothing at all and it at the very least gives you a good starting point to move onto the oter parts of training that you may not have experienced such as mitts , bags, sparring, competition fighting, combat.
besides, when we fight, who here does a form while fighting? anyone? I know I don’t, but I really honestly make my best attempts at using what I have and lots of it was contained in forms i learned over the years.
Im not a pro fighter, I don’t even fight amateur anymore. So that at least puts me in the same category as 99.999 of everyone on every martial arts message board out there. :)[/QUOTE]
I have no issues with forms being taught as part of a system for cultural context or historical context or “even just because”.
As it is, right now I only do one main form and that is the Tid Sin Kuen.
It has everything I need.
I do quite a bit of shadow boxing as part of my warm-ups and cool downs, but the bulk of the non-sparring training is done on equipment.
I have dropped all my kyokushin forms, except for Sanchin ( and even sanchin I do it more like the Okinawan Goju method), I do my Chen Taiji form in the morning, because it energizes me.
I alternate my Sanchin with SPM’s Sarm Bo Jin and FWC’s San Zhan.
I don’t train fighting from ANY form.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;860386]I have no issues with forms being taught as part of a system for cultural context or historical context or “even just because”.
As it is, right now I only do one main form and that is the Tid Sin Kuen.
It has everything I need.
I do quite a bit of shadow boxing as part of my warm-ups and cool downs, but the bulk of the non-sparring training is done on equipment.
I have dropped all my kyokushin forms, except for Sanchin ( and even sanchin I do it more like the Okinawan Goju method), I do my Chen Taiji form in the morning, because it energizes me.
I alternate my Sanchin with SPM’s Sarm Bo Jin and FWC’s San Zhan.
I don’t train fighting from ANY form.[/QUOTE]
maybe not, but you are developing attributes through form work that will aid you in your defense of self.
like a weightlifter develops strength and changes his body through the work, this is what any training does for us. Attribute development. Applied technique is the final stage of understanding of any martial practice.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;860389]maybe not, but you are developing attributes through form work that will aid you in your defense of self.
like a weightlifter develops strength and changes his body through the work, this is what any training does for us. Attribute development. Applied technique is the final stage of understanding of any martial practice.[/QUOTE]
And we have reached the crux of the matter, what forms are suppose to do and what they are not able to do.
Forms that are NOT combat specific like Sanchin, Tid sid kuen, etc, but that do develop attributes for not only health but fighting, are quite useful.
They are a valuable part of the package.
Like you said, applied technique is the final stage of understanding any martial practice.
Its just that some arts get to that stage much faster than others, and forms being used for the wrong reasons is a big reason why that is so.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;860391]And we have reached the crux of the matter, what forms are suppose to do and what they are not able to do.
Forms that are NOT combat specific like Sanchin, Tid sid kuen, etc, but that do develop attributes for not only health but fighting, are quite useful.
They are a valuable part of the package.
Like you said, applied technique is the final stage of understanding any martial practice.
Its just that some arts get to that stage much faster than others, and forms being used for the wrong reasons is a big reason why that is so.[/QUOTE]
This I can agree with 100 percent.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;860347]Not sure what your point is, I mean, MK put the clip up, I assume, to show that forms ( prearranged choreagraphed moves done into the air) are not needed to develop skills.
Which is widely accepted as a fact.
Zero to do with “toughness”.[/QUOTE]
being widely accepted as not being a nessisary step yes. You forms bashers seem to think that since you place no value on forms that everyone who doesn’t agree with you is deluded and can’t fight. Which is, simply put, moronic and self delusional. You point of veiw and opinions are different than mine. this is not better or worse, only different… And a bit scarry when one realizes that narrow minded morons like you are helping to pick the next president of the U.S.:eek:
[QUOTE=Becca;860397]being widely accepted as not being a nessisary step yes. You forms bashers seem to think that since you place no value on forms that everyone who doesn’t agree with you is deluded and can’t fight. Which is, simply put, moronic and self delusional. You point of veiw and opinions are different than mine. this is not better or worse, only different… And a bit scarry when one realizes that narrow minded morons like you are helping to pick the next president of the U.S.:eek:[/QUOTE]
I’m a form basher?
:eek:
And can vote in the US elections ???
[QUOTE=MightyB;860395]This I can agree with 100 percent.[/QUOTE]
I am glad 
Seriously, the only issue I have with anyone teaching forms ( one really can’t have issues with forms only how they are taught) is when they teach them under the “disguise” of teaching how to fight.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;860391]And we have reached the crux of the matter, what forms are suppose to do and what they are not able to do.
Forms that are NOT combat specific like Sanchin, Tid sid kuen, etc, but that do develop attributes for not only health but fighting, are quite useful.
They are a valuable part of the package.
Like you said, applied technique is the final stage of understanding any martial practice.
Its just that some arts get to that stage much faster than others, and forms being used for the wrong reasons is a big reason why that is so.[/QUOTE]
so, it’s basically some sort of physiological stimulation in context of a martial mindset, right? I mean, show me any “martial” form that is like TSK, and I will find you a correlate in non-martial qigong or yogic or even some western movement practices;
[QUOTE=Becca;860313]So your objection to forms is that they are a string of drills strung together and executed the same way every time?[/QUOTE]
yes and no; the repetition aspect is of concern, because it may predispose you to have a preferrred muscle memory to do technique A after B moreso than doing X, because A and B are sequential in the form, but the circumstance may call for X;
no, in the sense that I have outlined before, that practicing the “same” moves over and over, one learns about finding “newness” in “sameness”, which, I believe, has value for one’s life in general
[QUOTE=Becca;860397]being widely accepted as not being a nessisary step yes. You forms bashers seem to think that since you place no value on forms that everyone who doesn’t agree with you is deluded and can’t fight. Which is, simply put, moronic and self delusional. You point of veiw and opinions are different than mine. this is not better or worse, only different… And a bit scarry when one realizes that narrow minded morons like you are helping to pick the next president of the U.S.:eek:[/QUOTE]
the point has nothing to do with open or closed minded: it’s an examination of the inherent parameters of forms practice, an analysis of the specific attributes thereof: forms are: solo practice, strikes in air, non-random / pre-arranged, non-psychologically stressful; in other words, the antithesis of fighting from both a motor learning and a neuromuscular recruitment perspective; now, one may both practice forms and be a good fighter, but I personally don’t believe that the form practice per se contributed to that directly; it may contribute indirectly though: if you have good inherent physical skills, are well-conditioned, and train context-specific enough (pads, live, resistance, etc.) then practicing forms may be a sort of psychological booster, which, if not too far ahead of your actual skill level, may positively impact your overall psychological state in regards to your fighting and may enhance your overall performance
so, it’s basically some sort of physiological stimulation in context of a martial mindset, right? I mean, show me any “martial” form that is like TSK, and I will find you a correlate in non-martial qigong or yogic or even some western movement practices;
I would imagine you can do that, yes.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;860426]I would imagine you can do that, yes.[/QUOTE]
so, is the implication then that the martial mindset is necessary for it to be valid? in other words, for a MAtist to train pure yoga, is that, i don’t know, a wussy thing to do, so it needs to be done “tough guy” style? maybe it’s like is it like serving the same meal to two different people, but one wants hot sauce and the other wants maple syrup?
my point is, to try to figure out how the psychology involved in forms practice “works”, why some people feel it’s necessary to train forms in order to round out their practice…
[QUOTE=cjurakpt;860428]so, is the implication then that the martial mindset is necessary for it to be valid? in other words, for a MAtist to train pure yoga, is that, i don’t know, a wussy thing to do, so it needs to be done “tough guy” style? maybe it’s like is it like serving the same meal to two different people, but one wants hot sauce and the other wants maple syrup?
my point is, to try to figure out how the psychology involved in forms practice “works”, why some people feel it’s necessary to train forms in order to round out their practice…[/QUOTE]
I think that, and I am sure you may agree, certain “forms” put us in a “martial state of mind”.
Some even as far as a trance -like state.
And Yogs is NOT wussy, its freaking hard !
But the view is quite enticing
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;860431]I think that, and I am sure you may agree, certain “forms” put us in a “martial state of mind”.
Some even as far as a trance -like state.
And Yogs is NOT wussy, its freaking hard !
But the view is quite enticing :D[/QUOTE]
trance-like is relevant, because much of taoist practice vis a vis martial arts subscribing to that perspective, is based on shamanic practice, which used trance-state to communicate with so-called natural forces
maybe there is something about forms practice that tries to get in touch with a more primal state of being? similar to ritual dance? maybe that’s why folks are so loathe to give it up…
maybe there is something about forms practice that tries to get in touch with a more primal state of being? similar to ritual dance? maybe that’s why folks are so loathe to give it up…
With certain forms, as you do them, you feel the “primal energy”, for lack of a better term.
Typically those are the “training forms”, the less flashy and more “intense” ones.
[QUOTE=cjurakpt;860428]so, is the implication then that the martial mindset is necessary for it to be valid? in other words, for a MAtist to train pure yoga, is that, i don’t know, a wussy thing to do, so it needs to be done “tough guy” style? maybe it’s like is it like serving the same meal to two different people, but one wants hot sauce and the other wants maple syrup?
my point is, to try to figure out how the psychology involved in forms practice “works”, why some people feel it’s necessary to train forms in order to round out their practice…[/QUOTE]
well, to round out ones practice is by definition to absorb as much of what there is on as many levels as possible.
i also agree that you can find modern methods that develop attributes in the same manner as some of the sets found in tcma such as tsk or sam-chien and so on.
But, many actual fighters round out there practice with these modern methods and even some old ones. I know a few guys who do yoga for instance and fight on carded fights. They do the yoga because of what it does for them structurally, health wise and a state of mind thing as well. It’s fantastic for spinal health which we can all agree is huge.
I would also note than there are many gongs in tcma that actually mirror yoga. This has to do with the nature of buddhist martial arts stemming from india, but there you have it. anyway, i digress.
but, what harm is there in doing forms realy?
I hear you when you say there is harm in how they are transmitted as the be all and end all of fighting knowledge, but do we actualy know anyone who does that? Contemporary wushu? I think that even they realize they are doing art and not competitive fighting.
And what of systems that have actual sets within them that are designed to help you break free from sets? lol. this technique of teaching is in other disciplines as well. for instance, in art you are taught all sorts of technical things, but to produce “art” you cannot fall into the patterns of mechanical technique. otherwise, it simply isn’t art.
How many of us have been in th scenario where sifu or sensei uses form to change the way you move? for instance, say you learn a tense form early in your training. And now, that you have done this, you have a preset disposition to be tense because you are so early on, you think this is it! lol. then sifu, or sensei will teach you something that requires a whole different way of moving or you will not be able to correctly perform the shape of the techniques.
anyone had that? I know that principle of training was a constant in every asian martial art I was taught from. I think this is common.
Chinese martial arts are wide and deep. Forms are merely a part of the whole. It is dangerous to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but by all means, take what you can use or what you understand and by all means, leave the rest. Someone will find use.
One mans treasure is another mans trash is the only point i can surmise from the debate so far. But it needn’t be one or the other extreme really.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;860445]well, to round out ones practice is by definition to absorb as much of what there is on as many levels as possible.
i also agree that you can find modern methods that develop attributes in the same manner as some of the sets found in tcma such as tsk or sam-chien and so on.
But, many actual fighters round out there practice with these modern methods and even some old ones. I know a few guys who do yoga for instance and fight on carded fights. They do the yoga because of what it does for them structurally, health wise and a state of mind thing as well. It’s fantastic for spinal health which we can all agree is huge.
I would also note than there are many gongs in tcma that actually mirror yoga. This has to do with the nature of buddhist martial arts stemming from india, but there you have it. anyway, i digress.
but, what harm is there in doing forms realy?
I hear you when you say there is harm in how they are transmitted as the be all and end all of fighting knowledge, but do we actualy know anyone who does that? Contemporary wushu? I think that even they realize they are doing art and not competitive fighting.
And what of systems that have actual sets within them that are designed to help you break free from sets? lol. this technique of teaching is in other disciplines as well. for instance, in art you are taught all sorts of technical things, but to produce “art” you cannot fall into the patterns of mechanical technique. otherwise, it simply isn’t art.
How many of us have been in th scenario where sifu or sensei uses form to change the way you move? for instance, say you learn a tense form early in your training. And now, that you have done this, you have a preset disposition to be tense because you are so early on, you think this is it! lol. then sifu, or sensei will teach you something that requires a whole different way of moving or you will not be able to correctly perform the shape of the techniques.
anyone had that? I know that principle of training was a constant in every asian martial art I was taught from. I think this is common.
Chinese martial arts are wide and deep. Forms are merely a part of the whole. It is dangerous to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but by all means, take what you can use or what you understand and by all means, leave the rest. Someone will find use.
One mans treasure is another mans trash is the only point i can surmise from the debate so far. But it needn’t be one or the other extreme really.[/QUOTE]
I would suggest that the take-home message from your post is that forms are a template, a super-structure on top of which one can move in many different directions, and a sort of reference to which we can look back and measure "progress’ of some sort; in a way, it’s an agreed upon convention between two people as a means of communication for two people engaged in the same skill set but at very different levels (which we could say about sparring as well, of course); in a sense, forms are a text, a text which contains within it self it’s own necessary self-demise (oh God, the deconstruction in me made me write that! I know if Ross reads this, his eyes will start to burn…)
but seriously, that may be a big part of it, the cultural coding: a way of increasing communication and dissemination of values - which could be why MMA rejects forms practice, because of the Asian cultural baggage attached to it that so many American MA teachers, looking for sweeter ginger, have taken and then used to establish a sense of mystique about themselves and the arts that most people in this culture didn’t have the capacity to assess adequately; and some people finally got fed up with the fortune cookie cutter answers, and hence, MMA!
sorry about this post…
but seriously, that may be a big part of it, the cultural coding: a way of increasing communication and dissemination of values - which could be why MMA rejects forms practice, because of the Asian cultural baggage attached to it that so many American MA teachers, looking for sweeter ginger, have taken and then used to establish a sense of mystique about themselves and the arts that most people in this culture didn’t have the capacity to assess adequately; and some people finally got fed up with the fortune cookie cutter answers, and hence, MMA!
sorry about this post…
There is much truth in this.
Much like the thundering C0ck that strides the mountain top and spews forth its chi onto the glistening valley below.
I just have to say that it seems to me a lot of the issue with most of these ‘discussions’ is the mythical Kung Fu guy that they all rail against.
You know, the guy that does NOTHING but forms practice yet brags about how he’s a great fighter even though he never had a real fight. The guy nobody can name and none of us have ever seen.
The guy that says you don’t have to fight to learn how to fight. Is he here in this forum? Don’t think so since everyone admits to doing the type of training the mythical guy is claimed to not do.
Pretty much all here have agreed that you don’t need forms to fight but somehow we still get pages of comments bashing the guys that think you do even though we haven’ty seen anyone like that here anywhere.
I know I’ve had the pleasure of having someone claim I’m that guy even though I don’t train anyone to fight or offer advice to others here on the forum. That doesn’t stop the tilting at windmills though because it’s so much more fun than the truth.
So all in all, most of the peeps that post here use pretty much all the usual training tools (plus forms), have used some of what they’ve learned in real fights, know what real fighting is like, yet we still get thread after thread full of pages about all the clueless Kung Fu guys that do ONLY forms and have no idea what a real fight is like.
Go figure.
To add to my latest rant I recall not too long ago someone told a story about some hippies practicing Taiji in a park and laughing at how they think they’re learning to fight.
What was odd was that he never spoke to them, only sat an watched according to his story, yet somehow he knew that they all thought they were learning to fight instead of learning a Chinese exercise for health and longevity.
How can that be?