I pity the kid who gets into a playground fight with him, that kid is amazing
Focus pads dont hit back KC
[QUOTE=kwaichang;860113]Focus pads dont hit back KC[/QUOTE]
Neither does the air.
Technically both apply the same force.
Both have merits. Why do people insist that things are one way or the other? They are both, depending on what you want and what you need.
Forms are good and hitting things are good and grappling is good and sparring is good and sticking hands is good.
It’s all good.
That was a nice example of a form.
And wow.
If he did forms he prob wouldnt lift his elbow prior to Jabbing. When you hit something for the sake of speed you will develop poor tech habits the samee applies to seeking power only. Most have the wrong concept of what true power is. KC
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;860103]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y65VcABUzr8[/QUOTE]
I am not sure how this proves your point. All I can think of is how much more amazing he’d be with forms and teachers who really grasped the forms (which I’ll give you is a rare thing). He’s fantastic, no doubt about it. Will eclipse most all of us in our lifetimes.
But maxed out? It’s really debatable.
You know Tony Jaa has had forms and traditional teachings. Would anyone argue that he isn’t fantastically beyond most considered limits of human ability?
Also, Bruce Lee had forms. You just never know what forms do for you until you’ve had them… and some will never know.
edit: considering most people lose power in the feet to start with, true power is rarely, if ever attained. I’ve seen few examples of it. Fortunately for all of us, true power is overkill if you know what to hit.
You know all NBA teams use forms - in the style of plays - and would anyone argue they aren’t the cream of the crop in basketball perfection?
You know that olympic swimmers have forms and techniques they practice? And boxers use routine sets of strikes into the air.
There are many styles of forms. I don’t see how the lack of learning forms proves their ineffectiveness.
Hey MK, you remember the video posted awhile back with the little kid rolling with his dad in the living room? That would go nice with this clip.
[QUOTE=kwaichang;860113]Focus pads dont hit back KC[/QUOTE]
yes they do.
[QUOTE=shadowlin;860129]
You know Tony Jaa has had forms and traditional teachings. Would anyone argue that he isn’t fantastically beyond most considered limits of human ability?
Also, Bruce Lee had forms. You just never know what forms do for you until you’ve had them… and some will never know.
[/QUOTE]
- Tony Jaa has “forms” that “look cool” and tranlate to “cinematic imitation by real-life MA’s” who have “unreal expectations” of “forms” that “look cool”. I agree he’s fantastically talented. He’s in great shape, he “looks” like he hits hard, and he can do great gymnastics. But he practiced wushu, capoeira, and parkour. Then, he and Panni Rittikrai decided–hey, what if we made Muay Thai “LOOK LIKE IT WAS THE COOLEST”, and they tailored it up with the frills and lace of parkour, wushu, gymnastics, and capoeira.
But if you stuck him in the ring with the average fifteen year old Thai amateur, I’m not convinced he’d walk out of the ring with both legs intact. Again, the disconnect between cinema and reality is astounding here.
- Bruce had forms, and sometimes he used some of the movements in his movies, like everything in his movies, “BECAUSE THEY LOOK LIKE THEY ARE LIKE THE COOLEST THING ON THIS GREEN EARTH”…LOL…
Bruce hit bags, worked with live resisting opponents, etc. Note: He scrapped forms altogether. It’s not that his forms made him great. Perhaps scrapping forms and fighting/sparring/hitting bags made him great.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;860103]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y65VcABUzr8[/QUOTE]
wow he is going to beat the living crap out of some kid. I can see the lawsuits …
LOL I like the idea of kids doing forms and not actually learning how to fight.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;860103]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y65VcABUzr8[/QUOTE]
Mia could take him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLLpe1791oY&feature=related
[QUOTE=monji112000;860177]wow he is going to beat the living crap out of some kid. I can see the lawsuits …
LOL I like the idea of kids doing forms and not actually learning how to fight.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. As has been proven time and time again, most people need to be taught how to extract the fighting technique from forms, which makes them perfect for kids. You can teach them the techniques, train thir bodies, but hold off teaching them how to actually use them untill they are old enought to use them wisely.
MK, did we really need yet another thread about forms having no value to you? Couldn’t you have just made this about a seriously talented kid?
anybody who had that level of training, skill and familial commitment at 5 years old raise your hand.
he appears to be receiving good training geared towards him as a kid.
I am totally ok with this and I admire the kid for his moxy.
if he is full contact sparring at his age, I would rethink that entirely seeing as he is growing and its a good way to cause major problems for him later.
otherwise, cool.
p.s strung combos are forms. and focus mitts while not resistence training are not the same as hitting air. You get push back from your partner to feedback force to you. It’s not as intense as pads or heavy bags, but it is about focusing the strikes and aligning the mechanics of the body…which is…well, form work.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;860186]p.s strung combos are forms. and focus mitts while not resistence training are not the same as hitting air. You get push back from your partner to feedback force to you. It’s not as intense as pads or heavy bags, but it is about focusing the strikes and aligning the mechanics of the body…which is…well, form work.[/QUOTE]
ok, now you are dealing with the parameters of the context: in other words, a combination of a few techniques done against pads could be construed as “form”, but the difference is that there is resistance, there is a limit to the # of moves, and there is no belief that you are doing one thing while “secretly” training to do another;
BTW, the committment form the guy (dad?) to move around on his knees like that is not to be discounted!
overall, I see nothing wrong with what that kid is doing, and it just reinforces that in order to have good fighting technique, forms a la classical TCMA training is not required;
considering the probable context of his life in general (yes, this is a big assumption), it’s likely keeping him (hopefully?) from finding other, less positive things to do on his spare time…
and as far as kids doing forms, I am all for it, because it increases core skills (balance, coordination, endurance, memory) and heightens self-esteem by giving someone something challenging to do;
Shuaijiao is as excellent an art after 3 years study because all the pre-requisite shenfa and liangong training methods are contained therin and there is no qi BS or learnign form after form and still be clueless as to martial spirit and understanding!
[QUOTE=cjurakpt;860200]ok, now you are dealing with the parameters of the context: in other words, a combination of a few techniques done against pads could be construed as “form”, but the difference is that there is resistance, there is a limit to the # of moves, and there is no belief that you are doing one thing while “secretly” training to do another;[/QUOTE]
well, not exactly what I was saying.
people get all caught up in the idea that forms are 100+move dance routines from given styles of martial arts.
there are very simple forms that have maybe 5 moves, albeit repeated that are merely “drills” of combination techniques.
when boxers do routines of jab jab, jab cross, jab cross hook uppercut etc etc and drill those techs, this is tantamount to forms with a limited variety of techniques due to the fact that those are the allowable techniques in the sport of boxing.
when you drill structure and technique together, you are working on teh shape of the technique, you are working on form.
whether or not you apply more is the only difference between schools.
everyone practices form no matter what the martial art. You cannot have technique without shape and practice of that shape whether its one move or 20.
[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;860176]1. Tony Jaa has “forms” that “look cool” and tranlate to “cinematic imitation by real-life MA’s” who have “unreal expectations” of “forms” that “look cool”. I agree he’s fantastically talented. He’s in great shape, he “looks” like he hits hard, and he can do great gymnastics. But he practiced wushu, capoeira, and parkour. Then, he and Panni Rittikrai decided–hey, what if we made Muay Thai “LOOK LIKE IT WAS THE COOLEST”, and they tailored it up with the frills and lace of parkour, wushu, gymnastics, and capoeira.
But if you stuck him in the ring with the average fifteen year old Thai amateur, I’m not convinced he’d walk out of the ring with both legs intact. Again, the disconnect between cinema and reality is astounding here.
- Bruce had forms, and sometimes he used some of the movements in his movies, like everything in his movies, “BECAUSE THEY LOOK LIKE THEY ARE LIKE THE COOLEST THING ON THIS GREEN EARTH”…LOL…
Bruce hit bags, worked with live resisting opponents, etc. Note: He scrapped forms altogether. It’s not that his forms made him great. Perhaps scrapping forms and fighting/sparring/hitting bags made him great.[/QUOTE]
I honestly am astounded by your belief that I was talking about their cinematic personas.
Bruce Lee was not the baddest thing to walk the Earth, but he was a fighter and was constantly challenged and his record wasn’t too bad. It was actually, impressive. He knew more than just screen choreography. I don’t think you can ever say what specifically made Bruce good except for his will and attitude. Anything else - and you have to admit it’s true if you’re honest - is opinion based on bias towards one paradigm or another. My paradigm says the forms gave him an edge in his foundation forming, and you think the edge came from his liberation from them. Are they necessarily mutually exclusive? (another point I brought up elsewhere)
Tony Jaa I have seen outside of the cinematic setting, and the guy has complete body awareness, and that’s what I’m talking about. Fighting isn’t all that matters. And my reference here is that his movements are only so good because of a solid mixture of forms in his foundational period, application, and proper exercises.
Last, though, is that I used those examples because people can picture them in their head. I could talk about Joe Blow, but few people know who he is, so what’s the point?
Aside from that, SW, I made it pretty clear what I think of choreography in another post, you should read it, because there is no disconnect… I don’t see choreography as equal to UFC. I addressed this elsewhere.