Why you don't need forms...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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21

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;860250]well, not exactly what I was saying.

people get all caught up in the idea that forms are 100+move dance routines from given styles of martial arts.
there are very simple forms that have maybe 5 moves, albeit repeated that are merely “drills” of combination techniques.

when boxers do routines of jab jab, jab cross, jab cross hook uppercut etc etc and drill those techs, this is tantamount to forms with a limited variety of techniques due to the fact that those are the allowable techniques in the sport of boxing.

when you drill structure and technique together, you are working on teh shape of the technique, you are working on form.

whether or not you apply more is the only difference between schools.

everyone practices form no matter what the martial art. You cannot have technique without shape and practice of that shape whether its one move or 20.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Thank you.

22

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;860250]well, not exactly what I was saying.

people get all caught up in the idea that forms are 100+move dance routines from given styles of martial arts.
there are very simple forms that have maybe 5 moves, albeit repeated that are merely “drills” of combination techniques.

when boxers do routines of jab jab, jab cross, jab cross hook uppercut etc etc and drill those techs, this is tantamount to forms with a limited variety of techniques due to the fact that those are the allowable techniques in the sport of boxing.

when you drill structure and technique together, you are working on teh shape of the technique, you are working on form.

whether or not you apply more is the only difference between schools.

everyone practices form no matter what the martial art. You cannot have technique without shape and practice of that shape whether its one move or 20.[/QUOTE]

Hear, hear. It’s good to have gotten that out of the way. So often we get caught up in definitions that the original purpose of the discussion is lost. As has been said on numerous occassions, if you see a reason to argue about the need for forms, you don’t understand what they are.

23

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;860250]well, not exactly what I was saying.

people get all caught up in the idea that forms are 100+move dance routines from given styles of martial arts.
there are very simple forms that have maybe 5 moves, albeit repeated that are merely “drills” of combination techniques.

when boxers do routines of jab jab, jab cross, jab cross hook uppercut etc etc and drill those techs, this is tantamount to forms with a limited variety of techniques due to the fact that those are the allowable techniques in the sport of boxing.

when you drill structure and technique together, you are working on teh shape of the technique, you are working on form.

whether or not you apply more is the only difference between schools.

everyone practices form no matter what the martial art. You cannot have technique without shape and practice of that shape whether its one move or 20.[/QUOTE]

ok, fair enough, if you want to call any sort of “pre-set” combo of moves a form, that is certainly logical; so then it is a matter of distinguishing the various ways one can practice the “shape” of what one does: obviously, if I practice a jab combo in the air versus against a bag versus against someone holding pads, the parameters are different - the question is to ask how valid is the first one, practicing in the air? again, motor learning would argue that it’s necessary only at the beginning to “get the idea” of the movement, and that as many other parameters should be added in as soon as possible; also, is there a “magic number” after which the form becomes an artifact; in other words, I can practice the “jab, cross, hook” form, whith the chances being pretty god that i will use that “form” in an actual fight in that order, with the same “shape”; on the flip side, I will never use the entire length of a 100, 50, 25 or even 10 move form as such; so is length the real issue? what is the cut off?

24

If the opportunity presents itself you will use the for 1,2, or 7 who knows how many tech one may use from the form.

I can just see some old Sifu looking at this BB and just shaking his head “they just dont get it” and laughing KC:confused:

25

Nice clip MK.
The kid had some nice skills, kept his hands up, punched like you punch when you are actually hitting something, I feel for his dad’s knees !
LOL!
There are some very awesome kids out there, not just boxing or BJJ, but wrestling too and in Judo.
Its in the genes baby !

26

[QUOTE=kwaichang;860284]If the opportunity presents itself you will use the for 1,2, or 7 who knows how many tech one may use from the form[/QUOTE]

I meant in the same exact order as in the form; I could see 1, 2 maybe 3, but beyond that it’s gets increasingly unlikely

27

Awesome! I think lil man is the bees knees. And while grown men are
yapping back and forth about forms, this kid is training and I’m sure neither
he or his dad give a s h it about anyone here’s perception or conception of
“forms”.:rolleyes:

28

Greetings..

Sometimes, we lose sight of the “mental” training that “good” formwork accomplishes.. depending on the form and teacher of course, the “solo” work trains the mind as well as the body.. everything begins in the “mind”. Do your forms as though the were an opponent, fight as if there weren’t anyone there.. which is to say that if we start reacting to the opponent they start controlling us.. be willing to be hit so you can execute your intent.. that is a core value of “form”. that when you get hit, when you can taste your pulse, when your vision is blurred and your head is ringing.. the patterning of well trained forms kicks in, you are running on instinct.. doing something other than becoming a punching bag.. when your vision is blurred or you just can’t “feel” the moment, turn a form loose.. if you have no options in reserve, your game is compromised..

Be well..

29

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;860296]I meant in the same exact order as in the form; I could see 1, 2 maybe 3, but beyond that it’s gets increasingly unlikely[/QUOTE]
So your objection to forms is that they are a string of drills strung together and executed the same way every time?

30

[QUOTE=Becca;860313]So your objection to forms is that they are a string of drills strung together and executed the same way every time?[/QUOTE]

If it is, that’s ridiculous because forms should of course be broken up and studied, varied, and blended.

You keep the form intact for teaching, not for learning. Anyone here attempting to argue that fights happen as a form progresses?

31

Prodigies are only prodigies when they are children. Eventually people catch up- and then they are just “normal”.

All this doesn’t matter 'cuz you can’t know if he’s tough. Some people are just tuff. He could have all of these fundamentals down and some other kid could just slam him into the corner and skull f— him for the next 2 and a half minutes and his boxing career is essentially over if he’s not tuff.

32

[QUOTE=Becca;860313]So your objection to forms is that they are a string of drills strung together and executed the same way every time?[/QUOTE]

forms are like scales in music. Its fine to practice scales, but that alone will never even get you remotely near being able to play with band. Its true that many amazing jazz musicians improvise of scales, and melodic phrases , but these guys are often above the average person. without basic timing(rhythm) practice, and many other things.. you can’t really improv with a group. Allot of people even skip the whole scale, and “technique” learning and just focus in the improv.. feeling things out.
some people just like learning scales and playing them alone.. thats fine too.

33

[QUOTE=MightyB;860344]Prodigies are only prodigies when they are children. Eventually people catch up- and then they are just “normal”.

All this doesn’t matter 'cuz you can’t know if he’s tough. Some people are just tuff. He could have all of these fundamentals down and some other kid could just slam him into the corner and skull f— him for the next 2 and a half minutes and his boxing career is essentially over if he’s not tuff.[/QUOTE]

Not sure what your point is, I mean, MK put the clip up, I assume, to show that forms ( prearranged choreagraphed moves done into the air) are not needed to develop skills.
Which is widely accepted as a fact.
Zero to do with “toughness”.

34

the point is that you can’t prove or disprove the validity of forms because— some people are just tuff.

It’s like how everyone is raging about the effectiveness of MMA 'cuz of what they see on TV. They’re seeing tuff people on TV and tuff people are attracted to MMA 'cuz of TV. Doesn’t mean that it’s the greatest schiznit, just shows us some tuff people wailing on each other. These people would be tuff no matter what style or lack of style you put them in. They’re just tuff. We all know “that one guy” who could beat the living schiznit out of us no matter how much wrestling training, boxing, or karate we practiced. Well, that “one guy” is common and a lot of those “guys” are on TV doing MMA.

35

[QUOTE=MightyB;860348]the point is that you can’t prove or disprove the validity of forms because— some people are just tuff.

It’s like how everyone is raging about the effectiveness of MMA 'cuz of what they see on TV. They’re seeing tuff people on TV and tuff people are attracted to MMA 'cuz of TV. Doesn’t mean that it’s the greatest schiznit, just shows us some tuff people wailing on each other. These people would be tuff no matter what style or lack of style you put them in. They’re just tuff. We all know “that one guy” who could beat the living schiznit out of us no matter how much wrestling training, boxing, or karate we practiced. Well, that “one guy” is common and a lot of those “guys” are on TV doing MMA.[/QUOTE]

Incorrect.

36

[QUOTE=MasterKiller;860350]Incorrect.[/QUOTE]

Correct

http://www.youtube.com/EhsanShafiq

watch any of his fights.

37

MMA is popular because its popular with the "average joe"and its on TV and gets a lot of press, just that simple.
MMA is popular with trainees because it not only works for almost everyone, its easy to learn, its fun, has very little “cultural garbage” attached to it and it has something for everyone.
I know quite a few guys that do MMA, even some that compete at the higher levels and yes, they are tough SOB’s, but I know just as tough if not tougher in some local “unknown” dojo’s and kwoons.
Sure sport combat systems attract people that like to fight or at least are physical, but the question is,why don’t TMA do that ANYMORE ?
They certainly used to…

38

[QUOTE=MightyB;860353]Correct

http://www.youtube.com/EhsanShafiq

watch any of his fights.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes:I can point you to about a bizillion other links to back my claim, but I’m not going to take the time.

Modern formless training focused on technique and conditioning produces better fighters faster than traditional methods.

Judo, Muay Thai, San Shou, Wrestling, Boxing, BJJ do not need forms and all produce highly-skilled fighters using the same methodology.

Most TMA schools have one guy that “gets it” and can fight. If that’s all you can point to, then I hope for your sake you are that “one guy” if you ever need it.

39

man…

hmmm, i think the terminology of forms and the stylistic differences are the stumbling blocks for the people who seem to be against form practice.

It’s all good, but you will wind up contradicting yourself.

You cannot have structure without form, you cannot have optimum force without form practice be it one punch, three in a row or 15 with a qigong thrown in between to get breathing up or to work on a particular attribute.

not to mention the vast array of different forms that are out there.

xingyi forms are compact and contain only a few techniques. some people may even look at a shape and say “oh that’s just a drill not a form” which of course is an erroneous thing to say because a drill IS Formwork!

pads and bags are separate and everyone learnbs the shape in the air first then onto resistance training, devices, partners etc etc.

even pro boxers do combinations and freeform shadow boxing to loosen up, dynamic or ballistic stretching can contain particular shapes needed to get the result and so on.

If my combinations strung together are not form work, or working on the correct structure for an optimum use of a technique is not form work, then I am not sure what “forms” you guys are talking about?

are you talking about set # 15 from such and such a curriculum? are you talking about the whole of martial arts? Chinese only? Japanese? Thai? Burmese? I don’t know what you are referring to unless you are just really wanting to rub out the practice of forms in general.

which would be not such a good thing in my opinion.

anyway, a “old one two” is a boxing form, its a jab cross usually. 2 moves. It’s called a one two. It’s sometimes called a drill. It’s in shadow drills, pad work, bags and gets used in the ring.

so no ones ever used a triple combo out of their sets in san shou? How do you effectively learn all the techniques you can legally use there without practicing those techniques?

how do you learn any technique at all without understanding it’s shape in context to your body, your energy and your ability to do the techniques?

i think it is a matter of terminology. I’d also say there is crap and ineffective training in all martial arts including modern boxing, mma et al.

Anyway, it’s about doing and being.

40

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;860366]man…

hmmm, i think the terminology of forms and the stylistic differences are the stumbling blocks for the people who seem to be against form practice.

It’s all good, but you will wind up contradicting yourself.

You cannot have structure without form, you cannot have optimum force without form practice be it one punch, three in a row or 15 with a qigong thrown in between to get breathing up or to work on a particular attribute.

not to mention the vast array of different forms that are out there.

xingyi forms are compact and contain only a few techniques. some people may even look at a shape and say “oh that’s just a drill not a form” which of course is an erroneous thing to say because a drill IS Formwork!

pads and bags are separate and everyone learnbs the shape in the air first then onto resistance training, devices, partners etc etc.

even pro boxers do combinations and freeform shadow boxing to loosen up, dynamic or ballistic stretching can contain particular shapes needed to get the result and so on.

If my combinations strung together are not form work, or working on the correct structure for an optimum use of a technique is not form work, then I am not sure what “forms” you guys are talking about?

are you talking about set # 15 from such and such a curriculum? are you talking about the whole of martial arts? Chinese only? Japanese? Thai? Burmese? I don’t know what you are referring to unless you are just really wanting to rub out the practice of forms in general.

which would be not such a good thing in my opinion.

anyway, a “old one two” is a boxing form, its a jab cross usually. 2 moves. It’s called a one two. It’s sometimes called a drill. It’s in shadow drills, pad work, bags and gets used in the ring.

so no ones ever used a triple combo out of their sets in san shou? How do you effectively learn all the techniques you can legally use there without practicing those techniques?

how do you learn any technique at all without understanding it’s shape in context to your body, your energy and your ability to do the techniques?

i think it is a matter of terminology. I’d also say there is crap and ineffective training in all martial arts including modern boxing, mma et al.

Anyway, it’s about doing and being.[/QUOTE]

I am pretty sure that when some one mentions “forms” that they are referring to pre-arranged/determined choreographed set moves done into the air.
No one has issues or questions the value of the “form” a technique takes when it is being applied properly.