Why Wing Chun?

loving a teacher instead of the system

The issue I see with following a system because of a charismatic teacher is this: You will ultimately be let down because your reason of inspiration is human which means he has flaws. You may not notice them initially but they will come about eventually and you will feel let down. You may want to develop the skills of the teacher but without his personal experiences it isn’t possible. Take your own experiences and couple them with what you are being taught to develop your own skill sets.

Better to study a style/system because you love it because then you will find your own inspiration for continuing instead of relying on an outside source to please or to keep you going. It’s fine if a certain teacher made you interested in the art but don’t let that cloud your training in the next years. Your focus must change from going gaga over a teacher to gaining skill sets with in that particular art.

SavvySavage

Great post my thoughts exactly :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=SavvySavage;904031]The issue I see with following a system because of a charismatic teacher is this: You will ultimately be let down because your reason of inspiration is human which means he has flaws.[/quote]

“Charisma”?
Pfooey!
Skill and the ability & willingness to teach the art properly are the paramount considerations in your choice of a SiFu. Without that person with those qualities, a style can never be properly passed on.

As for flaws, we are all human and have “foibles”. (ok, some are not so minor)
So long as those flaws are not part of his knowledge of the style it doesn’t really matter.
(provided you are fairly adroit in your “relationship-fu”)

You may not notice them initially but they will come about eventually and you will feel let down. You may want to develop the skills of the teacher but without his personal experiences it isn’t possible. Take your own experiences and couple them with what you are being taught to develop your own skill sets.

Experiences are only one part of what any practitioner brings to their art.
Physical/mental/character strengths and weaknesses also have a great deal to do with what and how you will learn… as well as whether or not you are a “good fit” with your teacher’s “personality”.

Better to study a style/system because you love it because then you will find your own inspiration…

“No one can do it for you!”

bakxierboxer

[QUOTE=bakxierboxer;904091]“Charisma”?
Pfooey!
Skill and the ability & willingness to teach the art properly are the paramount considerations in your choice of a SiFu. Without that person with those qualities, a style can never be properly passed on. [/QUOTE]

Could you please elaborate on some of your points? Different people will have different explanations of ability and willingness to teach an art properly and I’m interested in what you meant and what relevant experiences you can present. Thanks.

[QUOTE=bakxierboxer;904091]Experiences are only one part of what any practitioner brings to their art.
Physical/mental/character strengths and weaknesses also have a great deal to do with what and how you will learn… as well as whether or not you are a “good fit” with your teacher’s “personality”.[/QUOTE]

There are two schools of thought I think. One school says that you need someone to show you the basics and then it’s up to you to master them which will bring you to the next level. The other school says that you practice the basics forever but then you need someone to show you the finer points to get to the advanced levels.

Which school of thought do you think is best?

“No one can do it for you!”[/QUOTE]

the advanced techniques ARE the basics. The only difference is sensitivity, distance, angles, acuracy and timing. This comes with time and practice.

[QUOTE=TenTigers;904174]the advanced techniques ARE the basics. The only difference is sensitivity, distance, angles, acuracy and timing. This comes with time and practice.[/QUOTE]

???..
how can I put this diplomatically?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
??? oh, uh, yeah!

[SIZE=“4”]WRONG![/SIZE] :rolleyes: :smiley:

It is true that an advanced practitioner can “do wonders” with “basic techniques”.
What allows them to do this is their acquisition of “advanced skills” which are what you listed:
“sensitivity, distance, angles, acuracy and timing”.
These are all acquired and polished by practice, use and experience… over time, as you said.
Further, these are all combined with techniques as one acquires the “gungs”.
(all along never relieving you of the need to expend copious quantities of “blood, sweat and tears”)

Generally speaking, “basic techniques” are single discrete techniques.
Again speaking generally, “advanced techniques” are compound techniques.
(which is not at all the same as multiple techniques)

bakxierboxer says:

Generally speaking, “basic techniques” are single discrete techniques.
Again speaking generally, “advanced techniques” are compound techniques.
(which is not at all the same as multiple techniques)[/QUOTE]

A good distinction.

Bengal Tiger

I agree with this cold-heartedly

[QUOTE=bakxierboxer;904091]“Charisma”?
Pfooey!

Skill and the ability & willingness to teach the art properly are the paramount considerations in your choice of a SiFu. Without that person with those qualities, a style can never be properly passed on.

As for flaws, we are all human and have “foibles”. (ok, some are not so minor)
So long as those flaws are not part of his knowledge of the style it doesn’t really matter.
(provided you are fairly adroit in your “relationship-fu”)[/QUOTE]

Very good post!

That’s how those who cant do; just create problems for someone who can… Hoping that those problems will or could take away from ones skills or knowledge…

Everyone has eyes and can think too, but most here would rather believe and add fire to the problem, (we don’t have answers to everything) but most are not listening with their ears and because of their lack of knowledge they’re not being open, but only staying on the side of the so-called problem…

They rather cling to the ideal of the pass, because the more they speak the more they show that they no nothing…

Ali Rahim.

Generalities can equal confusion

I can’t tell who makes the least sense: bakxierboxer or Ali. R.

Could you two get out of your heads and say what you mean? Maybe I’m so unenlightened that I’m not ready to accept the abundant knowledge of your posts.

I’m just being playful so please don’t be offended. Seriously though, spit it out

[QUOTE=bakxierboxer;904206]???..
Further, these are all combined with techniques as one acquires the “gungs”.
Generally speaking, “basic techniques” are single discrete techniques.
Again speaking generally, “advanced techniques” are compound techniques.
(which is not at all the same as multiple techniques)[/QUOTE]

The gungs are in many cases taught in the beginning as basics, Although there are certain elements that are not taught or shown to beginners or outsiders, the seeds are there, it is up to the Sifu and the student to nourish them and take their Gung-Fu to the higher levels.

[QUOTE=TenTigers;904267]The gungs are in many cases taught in the beginning as basics, Although there are certain elements that are not taught or shown to beginners or outsiders, the seeds are there, it is up to the Sifu and the student to nourish them and take their Gung-Fu to the higher levels.[/QUOTE]

I think you two may be confusing two different things.
Techniques and skills.
There are no “advanced” techniques, this is true, but there are advanced skills.

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;904256]


A good distinction.

Bengal Tiger[/QUOTE]

Thank you kind sir! :slight_smile:

I do have my occasional moments of (relative) “clarity”. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=TenTigers;904267]The gungs are in many cases taught in the beginning as basics… [/QUOTE]

Not the ones I’m talking about.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;904269]I think you two may be confusing two different things.
Techniques and skills.[/quote]

:confused:
I was trying to make a distinction between the two, and actually thought I’d succeeded at doing that. :rolleyes:

There are no “advanced” techniques…

Not true, otherwise some folks wouldn’t have had “trouble” comprehending something that I’ve recently posted about as a “compound technique”.
You know, kind of like doing three things in less than three “counts”. :cool:

this is true, but there are advanced skills.

Yes, there are some skills that are pretty much confined to the “advanced levels” of practitioners.
The majority of them, however, are usually simply the result of longer and more in-depth training.

A lot of subjects

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;903128]…and I ALWAYS SPEND the first 25 minutes or so of every class on conditioning (the classes go from 2 to 3 hours).[/quote]That sounds reasonable… it’s all a matter of proportion. One reason I had for leaving a (what I thought was) substandard class was because in a two-hour class we did one hour of conditioning and including other solo work (forms and san sik etc it was over an hour and a half - and the teacher often didn’t even show for the first twenty mins or so). It wasn’t even good conditioning! :smiley:

IT’S AN ABSOLUTE MUST.
Nah. It’s a sometimes useful addition. In a one hour class I’d expect no or very little conditioning (maybe push-ups to failure or something!) and for that matter no more than say 15 minutes on forms or other solo stuff - so your teacher can correct what you’ve been doing at home. Of course, if your form sucks and you haven’t been training you can go and stand in the corner and do it for an hour! :smiley: If it’s OK or even it sucks but you’ve obviously been working on it then it’s time to do applications and live setting ASAP.

[QUOTE=SavvySavage;904264]I can’t tell who makes the least sense: bakxierboxer or Ali. R.[/QUOTE]Ali’s a sifu, man! That makes him an expert! :smiley:

[QUOTE=Ali. R;904261]I agree with this cold-heartedly[/quote]That’s whole-heartedly I’m guessing. How the hell do you teach anything without a first language? I mean of course, MA teachers should be able to teach with just actions, but how do you get across all that Steiner theory stuff? LOL :smiley:

[quote=Ali. R;904261]They rather cling to the ideal of the pass, because the more they speak the more they show that they no nothing [/quote]Yup, time for you to follow your own advice: you’ve been speaking a lot recently. I recommend complete absence from the board. :smiley:

[QUOTE=SavvySavage;904031]The issue I see with following a system because of a charismatic teacher is this: You will ultimately be let down because your reason of inspiration is human which means he has flaws. You may not notice them initially but they will come about eventually and you will feel let down. You may want to develop the skills of the teacher but without his personal experiences it isn’t possible. Take your own experiences and couple them with what you are being taught to develop your own skill sets.

Better to study a style/system because you love it because then you will find your own inspiration for continuing instead of relying on an outside source to please or to keep you going. It’s fine if a certain teacher made you interested in the art but don’t let that cloud your training in the next years. Your focus must change from going gaga over a teacher to gaining skill sets with in that particular art.[/QUOTE]You sound like you’re talking about impressionable 16 year-olds. Just because your teacher is charismatic you don’t have to lose it. That’s just one reason why charisma isn’t important anyway. If he can help you to improve your fighting skills he’s a good teacher (including of course recognising if it’s right for you and your development to go and fight in comps, to go to other lines of the same style, to go to other styles, to do more conditioning, to stand in the corner of a room chain-punching for an hour… whatever… might work for some slackers! :smiley: )

As for the advanced tech debate, one of the things I like about chun is that the some move you learn in biu jee for example is an ‘advanced tech’ but it’s really just a continuation of something you learnt in SLT or CK with a different situational application. They’re essentially the same, though the angle may vary a little - the structure is just there.

The follower and the puppet

TROLL

I choosed that word for a reason, just as the other one I posted

All of that writing and not one word of value The article in which youre speaking of is translated in four different language, and was approached for a fifth translation Youre so petty http://detroitwingchun.com/steinerdigrams.htm

You have nothing of wing chun value Just like that post stated earlier, you’re just jumping on the bandwagon (follower)… That ride should have been over a long time ago, or should I put another coin in for you

Ali Rahim.

The followers (others) and the puppet (you)

TROLL

You understood that post very well, thats why you replied

I choosed that word for a reason, just as the other one I posted

All of that writing and not one word of value The article in which youre speaking of is translated in four different language, and was approached for a fifth translation Youre so petty http://detroitwingchun.com/steinerdigrams.htm

You have nothing of wing chun value Just like that post stated earlier, you’re just jumping on the bandwagon (follower)… That ride should have been over a long time ago, or should I roll another coin down the crack of your a$$, cause you know what you can do with mine…

Ali Rahim.

I was trying to make a distinction between the two, and actually thought I’d succeeded at doing that. :rolleyes:

Not true, otherwise some folks wouldn’t have had “trouble” comprehending something that I’ve recently posted about as a “compound technique”.
You know, kind of like doing three things in less than three “counts”. :cool:

Yes, there are some skills that are pretty much confined to the “advanced levels” of practitioners.
The majority of them, however, are usually simply the result of longer and more in-depth training.[/QUOTE]

I was actually directing that to Rik ( Ten Tigers).
And yes you did make the distinction clear, even for those of us with lack of chi :wink:

[QUOTE=Ali. R;904415]TROLL

I choosed that word for a reason, just as the other one I posted…

All of that writing and not one word of value… The article in which you’re speaking of is translated in four different language, and was approached for a fifth translation… You’re so petty http://detroitwingchun.com/steinerdigrams.htm

You have nothing of wing chun value… Just like that post stated earlier, you’re just jumping on the bandwagon (follower)… That ride should have been over a long time ago, or should I roll another coin down the crack of your a$$, cause you know what you can do with mine…

Ali Rahim.[/QUOTE]

You really need to mellow out Ali, you seem very antgonistic.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;904417]You really need to mellow out Ali, you seem very antgonistic.[/QUOTE]

So your saying that the person above my post is doing just fine, and I should follow his lead Lets face it, you check me, and Ill check you back Whats right is right and should not be one-sided

I have the right to do the same, why should I be taxed?

Ali Rahim.