Why Wing Chun is inferior...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
The way I do chi sau is is not sparring as you said it was. It teaches forward energy and how to react to different types of contact. You have to learn how to start from a random pre-contact stage and then the principles of chi sau can be applied. Which means you have to do what you probably consider sparring. Tis’ not the circling ,flailing hands you may think. I plan on taping some chi sau techinques and show you how they can be applied to real situtations. You’ll be seeing them here soon.
http://www.wck-media.co.uk
Then you’ll be enlightened my friend.
Phil
I don’t know… here’s what I saw on that site:

  • Chi Sao that looked just like the “steering wheel slap fighting” that I remember.
  • All forms, Chi Sao, or Mook Jong work. Where’s the sparring?
  • A lot of square stances.
  • Even worse than square stances- square stances while pigeon towed.
  • A significant amount of things that didn’t bear a whole lot resemblance to the way things go down in actual fights.

If what I saw there is representative of the majority of Wing Chun training, my original criticism stands.

It’s kind of funny that everyone seems to think that I am clueless about WC, but the videos on that site seem to be pretty much exactly the way I remember doing it.

22

Both Phil Redmond and myself do Traditional Wing Chun, which is fairly different to most other types of Wing Chun, So Your information is probably based on a different (although similar) martial art altogether

23

Originally posted by CHEUNG-WINGCHUN
Both Phil Redmond and myself do Traditional Wing Chun, which is fairly different to most other types of Wing Chun, So Your information is probably based on a different (although similar) martial art altogether
Uh… If his WC is different, then why is he referring me to that site? And wasn’t that his teacher, William Cheung, demonstrating many of those techniques? Has he changed what he learned from Mr. Cheung? Or does Mr. Cheung teach a different type of WC than what he was demonstrating on that site?

24

Planes are distinctly inferior.

They have small tires which are not really suitable to roll over most types of surfaces, including pot-holed roads in the north.

They aren’t very maneuverable, making it hard to turn around corners, and forget about trying to park at the mall, let along parallel on city streets.

You can’t fit through many modern highway underpasses or tunnels because of those stupid wings, and if you try to go too fast, you lose traction on the ground.

Also, the doors are so high, you can’t reach them from curbside.

I don’t know why anyone would every drive around in a plane.

25

Rene,

You’ve lost me! Have you posted to the wrong forum?
I was looking forward to a well thought out rebuttal to Knifefighter’s comments. Which is not to detract from the responses so far.

26

Hi Knifefighter,
What you really wanted to see was sparring, not the progression of training that leads to sparring. Am I right? I have no videos of actual sparring at the present but if you look here at the,
Example of Chi Sao Application at the bottom of this page; http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/woodchi.asp#chi
maybe you’ll see what I’m talking about. The goal of my site was to give people outside of WC and beginners in our system a look at the mechanics of WC. I never planned on showcasing "fights’ for other WC people. Also, if you’ll notice the techniques with William Cheung he moves to the blindside. Both one arm and two arm Chi sau start out square on. We then progress to cross arm chi sau with is probably more in line with what you would call sparring preparation. We start random sparring from crossarm before we progress to pre-contact sparring. Most MAs have forms, even Muay Thai. BTW we don’t stand pigeon toed.
Phil

27

Knifefighter,
One more thing, the circular movements in Chi Sau teach how to re-direct an incoming force and move to the blindside. Though it may look like it to the untrained eye we don’t just just roll around in a circle aimlessly. We are using forward intent so that when an opening is perceived we exploit it. Strategy is also involved. On the other hand I do agree with some of the things you posted. Like Ernie, said you put a lot of thought provoking points in it.

28

Knifefighter:

You bring up some valid points about your view, and its good to question things and yourself, especially when training in martial arts. The problem is that this looks like another unilateral thought about wing chun. Granted, a lot of wing chun practitioners may think like the way you posted. The thing is any good system of martial arts there comes the baggage of those who think their style is absolute. I am not a sifu like some on this forum. I am just a practitioner. I have trained several styles of martial arts over the years and found wing chun to really be one of the better ones. I have taken kick boxing, ryukyu kempo okinawan karate, akido, TKD, taiji yang family, and some judo. All of those systems have science and structure behind them just like wing chun. All of them have answers to lots of combat situations. In my personal experience wing chun has some of the most practical answers. By practical I mean techniques that do not require years of special training to perform, and are effecient. Just to clear up some things about wing chun (and a lot of people may disagree with this) I will comment on what you stated:

[b]Power Development:
Power development is an extremely important component of unarmed fighting. Body rotation plays a pivotal role in the development of power and can be illustrated by observing activities that require maximum power (i.e. golf drives; baseball homerun hits; baseball and football throws; discuss, javelin, and shotput throws; tennis strokes).

Since Centerline theory dictates that Wing Chun fighters keep the center of their bodies facing their opponents, they are unable to realize the maximum power development allowed by full body rotation.

Boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai, on the other hand, have no such constraints and make full use of body rotation in delivering their strikes. So much power is developed by these types of rotational mechanics that several of these fighters are routinely killed in the ring and in training each year.[/b]

You are right in one sense, but let me clear up some things about your statement. The structure behind WCK allows for close range power release. This does take a while to develope but once you feel it, it all makes sense. As for the centerline, that is true in theory, however, sometimes you are more worried about your opponet’s centerline than your own. The bong sao is a perfect example. You never hold it long and if you applied right on your center line with out any kind of adjustment or foot work, it would not work. You do face off facing your opponet from the front, but not always. Centerline theory is not straight at your opponet, it is usually at angles protecting your body from your opponet’s.

Next you talk about vulnerability to attacks from a front nuetral stance. Here in lies one of the theories of WCK. Way back in kung fu history very old shaolin styles had side stance fighting. Where one would always face your opponet from your side, keeping all your vital areas protected by your structure and making them real hard targets to hit. This has one major flaw, any attack from the back side will be heavily telegraphed. Wing chun likes to make its attacks less telegraphed. So we do face more directly towards our opponets. This allows all of our weapons to be able to fire at our opponet.

Mobility is a big thing in fighting I agree. Wing chun footwork is debated among lineages and very different from WCK person to person depending on lineage. If you want my honest opinion about this, WCK footwork is a great foundational foot work system. I think however, you should also learn some type of JKD or boxing type foot work for speed. Sometimes you might want speed over power. However, WCK footwork is good. I think that one thing that is overlooked in your statement is how 50/50 footwork is really applied. No way are you going to stay completely 50/50 in a fight, there are too many variables for that to be absolute. What is really great about being 50/50 is the fact that you are already in an optimal position to change stances and foot work. From the 50/50 position I can change into a cat stance, or horse stance, or bow and arrow stance faster. This also makes both limbs move at the same rate. When 50/50 its faster to post and kick because both legs are already evenly weighted, so you can use either limb and equal speeds.

Range, can be medium long or short. Long range typically is use as a bridge creating move to close the empty gap between you and your opponet. Optimal range for wing chun would be medium to short range, but long range definately is not out of the question. The thing about long range attacks is that they have to be somewhat committed becuase of the space between you and your opponet. Wing chun generally does not really advocate overcommitting to attacks.

[b] Full-contact combative contests such as the K-1 kickboxing events and the Pride and UFC mixed martial arts competitions attract many of the world’s top combat athletes. These events allow participants to test themselves and their training against the best, as well as to make future modifications to their training depending on their successes or failures.

Wing Chun practitioners, by and large, have been relatively unsuccessful in modifying their system to be able to compete under the rules and with the equipment required in these types of contests.

Boxing and Muay Thai have been able to successfully modify their arts to fit the constraints of sporting venues. While kickboxing was developed largely as a ring sport, boxing and Muay Thai were originally designed to be used with no safety equipment, such as gloves, and very few, if any, rules. Over the years, both boxing and Muay Thai have adjusted well to a variety of rule and equipment changes. Muay Thai has successfully adjusted a variety of its techniques, such as the behind the neck grip in the plumb position, to allow for the interference of protective gloves on gripping ability. A variety of boxers, kickboxers, and Muay Thai fighters have also crosstrained in grappling and groundfighting and have been regularly successful at competing in MMA events.[/b]

I disagree with this statement. There are plenty of competitors that train in wing chun, they just cross train. Ring fighting and real fighting are different. Ground fighting in real life ends in breaks and other nasty bits (gouging, fish hooks, ear ripping, etc) and in the ring it ends in submission moves. Two completely different fights. There is even a difference between muay thai the martial art, and muay thai the sport.

About chi sao. Chi sao is not sparring, and its not combat. Chi sao is a tool that helps build up energies and muscle memory. Chi sao is very dynamic and can be looked at as a fight in a few certain aspects. One aspect is you will never have the same fight twice just like you will never have the same chi sao twice. Chi sao also builds up ideas and energies which the practitioner can use and feel. I have used chi sao while on the ground in sparring situations. I could not see my opponet because I was side mounted on my back side, but I felt him move in on me and I knew what he was going to try to do me based on how he moved in. I was able shrimp over with this arm between my legs and clenched it to an armbar. Thanks to chi sao I acted upon his action, I did not react. A reaction would have been too long of a time and I would have gotten pounded or joint locked. I acted before he could clench anything on me, that is one thing chi sao is good for.

Muay Thai is a good system and if you prefer it, then train it. I know a few muay thai guys and I like to play around and spar a bit with them. Its really an effective fighting system, not to mention combat tested. So is wing chun however. My sifu trained with someone from the sonny tang system (I could be wrong about lineage I don’t remember exactly) who used a combination of wing chun and muay thai and he trained both. He was apparently a really good fighter over in Hong kong, unfortunately I never had the opportunity to meet or train with him.
The only disagreement I have with Muay Thai, is that it overcommits just a bit.

One of the problems is some wing chun practitioners are not science savy people and they eat up all this theory behind wing chun. I work in the IT field and when I am fixing computers and other peripherals I could easily just make up some technical jargin as I go with my clients and most of them wouldn’t know if I was telling them the truth or not. This is because most of them are not computer savy people. So whenever you spit out a bunch of science to non scientific people its going to turn out like what your views were sometimes.

29

Good thread

Hi Knifefighter,

I think more people should look at what they do realistically and critically. Its important to meet different martial artists and exchange knowledge or get a different perspective. I used to practice wing chun like you described in your original message. I wish I could have been more openminded and explore the art instead of the myths. Nowadays, I really appreciate constructive feedback.

There are snapshots in our gallery of Wing Chun students during friendly sparring sessions with an extermely experienced Muay Thai fighter in the Panyu training camp in China. You might also want to check out the daily training photos. There is a series of pictures in there where Jones demonstrates some different Wing Chun fighting stances… and some of the techniques we practice daily. You’ll see us practicing techniques from different starting postures (jong). Navigate thru them by clicking on prev/next.

Here is an excerpt from an article by my SiFu describing the Wing Chun Syllabus. The full article is here

A basic description of the Wing Chun syllabus contains the three open hand forms of Siu Lim Tau (Little Imagination), Chum Kiu (Seeking the Bridge), Biu Jee (Thrusting Fingers), Chi Sau (Sticky Hands), and the Mok Yan Jong (Wooden Dummy Form). There are also the weapon forms for the Luk Dim Boon Guan (Long Pole) and the Baht Jam Doa (Double Knives).

It is a common misconception that one completes the art of Wing Chun after learning the above syllabus. There is actually much more to Wing Chun than just this. Just regarding the forms, there is an additional dummy form for the eight Wing Chun kicks called Buhn Jee Jong (tri-pole kicking dummy). Also various dummy forms for the Long Pole and Double Knives must be trained. And still, even after learning all of the forms and sticky hand drills, one cannot yet claim to have learned the whole Wing Chun system.

For instance, learning Chi Sau (Sticky Hands) is more of a stepping-stone that prepares one for training fighting applications. Chi Sau trains one’s reflex, sensitivity, coordination, mobility, and non-stop movement. Chi Sau also trains one in the concept of coverage, which is important for simultaneous offense and defense.

I would also like to stress that the forms alone cannot be employed as-is for fighting. Even after one has learned all the forms, one must employ “Chahk Kuen” and “Chahk Jong”. These two terms mean to break down the individual techniques and movements contained within the forms, and recombine them with other techniques/movements for application in fighting. In addition, Wing Chun has special training methods called “Dah San Jong” and “Dah Wai” which employ the recombined techniques from “Chahk Kuen” and “Chahk Jong”. “Dah San Jong” means to apply the recombined techniques on a “live dummy”. The “live dummy” is an opponent who will attack you using different techniques, both from Wing Chun or from other styles. “Dah Wai” is similar to “Dah San Jong” except the Wing Chun practicioner is confronted with more than one opponent.

The recombined techniques may appear different from how they are played in the forms. This is because the forms are just a rudimentary foundation to Wing Chun, just like the English alphabet is to the English language. For example, the letter “B” holds no inherent meaning on its own. But when combined with the letters “A” and “T”, the three letters can spell out the word “BAT”. This word may contain several different meanings. If one rearranges the order of the letters, another word (“TAB”), with different meanings and applications, can be spelled. It is also necessary to point out that no one letter is more important than another. A similar approach holds true for the forms in Wing Chun. No one form is more important or more advanced than the next. No one can speak English just with the alphabet alone. There are other factors that affect a language, such as vocabulary, grammar, and syntax. As such, no one can fight in a form because fighting involves more than just forms.

As “Chahk Kuen” is important to better understand the application of some techniques in the forms, “Chahk Jong” is also very important for understanding the Mok Yan Jong (Wooden Dummy Form). The techniques from the Wooden Dummy Form also cannot be applied as in the form when fighting. This is because, unlike a fighting opponent, the wooden dummy is inanimate. Although it has two arms and one leg, the arms and leg cannot move, even when they are hit. Nor will they hit you back. It follows, then, that the application of technique in the form must again be different from that employed in actual fighting.

Many techniques in fighting application are completely beyond what one may imagine when attempting to interpret the forms. As we start to see this amazing progression from form to fighting, we begin to realize how ingenious the previous generations of Wing Chun practitioners must have been in designing these techniques centuries ago.

In addition to “Chahk Kuen”, “Chahk Jong”, “Dah San Jong”, and “Dah Wai”, Wing Chun also has many other exercises and training methods. Although all based upon scientific principles, the actual training does not require sophisticated equipment. These training methods are for the sake of developing “Gung Lek”. Unfortunately there has been much effort in mystifying this concept. “Gung Lek” is a method of generating a specific type of power. For example, a power-lifter’s legs are specifically trained to lift large amounts of weight. In contrast, a runner’s legs are also very strong but are trained more for speed and endurance. “Gung Lek” training in Wing Chun is designed to maximize the power and speed of Wing Chun techniques. If one does not have the physical ability to back up technical prowess, then one has but a mere shell of a martial art. As such, the Chinese have a famous martial arts saying, “Lien Kuen But Lien Gung Doh Lo Yut Cheung Hung”. This can be translated as “If you diligently practice your martial art with Gung Lek, you will have substance in your kung-fu, instead of an empty shell and a dream of what you could have been in your twilight years”.

Also, an extremely useful resource is SiFu Duncan Leung’s messageboard. SiFu Leung regularly answers questions posed to him.
If I were in LA, I’d love to get together too!

/marcus

30

Knifefighter,

Saturday and Sunday afternoons have worked out pretty well for people in the past. Let’s find out when Dave McKinnon is gonna be up next, try to coordinate some dates.

Later,

Andrew

31

i like judo,but i went to learn some wing chun and was amazed/scared.the effectiveness of the bong sau,was
instant.there was much of value in this style.what wck might
need,is a big public success.however,im sure its saved the
bacon of more than a few folks from time to time.

russell.

32

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
BTW we don’t stand pigeon toed.
Then why is there a clip of a person demonstrating a form while standing pigeon-towed?

As far as the rest of the clips on the site, they are perfect examples of my criticisms. Sparring was only one of my critiques.

33

In the yee jee ken yueng ma (sp?) stance does stand pigeon toed (in some lineages). That is only really mainly in the first form, and when transfering from one stance to another in other forms. It is a training stance and not a fighting stance. It can be used to analyze actual combat movements. When you execute a movement and want to test if its in the center and properly stuctured you can slowly drop back to a YJKYM and see how the movement looks. It also helps build a strong root and energies (chi flow) through out the body. No one would fight pigeon toed, just train that way

34

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Then why is there a clip of a person demonstrating a form while standing pigeon-towed?

Because that’s the stance (Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma) for Siu Lim Tau and basic exercises. Chum Kiu and Biu Jee incorporate footwork and don’t use YJKYMA.

That’s just an exercise, Knifefighter. It develops leg muscles, structure, and many other things, but it’s not a fighting stance.
Boxers skip rope for training, but they don’t do it in the ring, do they?
I hope you find a skilled WC practitioner to show you what WC is really about.

35

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
In the yee jee kuen yueng ma (sp?) stance does stand pigeon toed (in some lineages). That is only really mainly in the first form, and when transfering from one stance to another in other forms. It is a training stance and not a fighting stance.
And that is exactly one of my criticisms- specificity of training. Boxers, kickboxers, and Muay Thai fighters start out using the same stances, strikes, and movements they will always be doing. They never have to change and rewire their neuromuscular connections for real fighting applications.

36

Originally posted by quiet man
Boxers skip rope for training, but they don’t do it in the ring, do they?

Boxers skip rope as a conditioning supplement to their boxing. Jumping rope is not taught as part of the boxing curriculum. Jumping rope is done before the boxing workout, to warm up the muscles or after the boxing workout as a conditioning exercise, in place of or in addition to their other conditioning training. It is no more a part of boxing than are their running or weight lifting workouts.

37

The YJKYM stance can also be seen as a conditioning tool. Holding the stance for long periods of time does help train your stance and structure. The stance is designed to help a beginer advance to the advanced part of the art. Its a base, a foundation if you will. When people train in kickboxing or Muay Thai they cannot perfrom the higher level techniques with out the proper training. You must learn to crawl before you can walk, that is what its doing.

To answer why its always trained the way it is from day one is because its still a sporting event with rules and regulations. In a real fight there are no rules and regulations that is why some wing chun training and MT or kick boxing will be different. If you were to train Muay Thai for real combat outside of the ring it would probably be different.

38

You’ve lost me! Have you posted to the wrong forum?

No, it was the correct response to knife-fighter’s troll. WCK is different in kind from kickboxing, as a plane is different in kind from an automobile, even though both are intended for the same general purpose (fighting and transportation respectively).

However, it is true (and you can see from some responses) that many people nowadays want to use WCK as a form of kickboxing albeit with different tools. IMHO, therein is the confusion and problems.

WCK is about as useful for kickboxing as TKD is for olympic wrestling. To make it fit that mould, it is altered to the extent that it becomes neither–no longer WCK yet not as good for kickboxing as MT.

Sorta like taking your lear jet out onto the highway for a spin…

39

Sorry Rene I dont really buy that.

WC and MMA both have the same starting point and the same goal.

Two human beings with similar attributes.
One of these attempting to use a system of movements, principles to physically destroy the other.

With this contextualizing the debate I dont see why a discussion on which art or aspects of the art might lead it to be inferior is unreasonable.

Having said that I think further discussion here is a bit redundant. A perfectly nice offer to cross train has been made by some WC guys.
I think Knifefighter should take them up on their offer and report back after - no more mouthboxing needed.

40

Knife

This statement,

>>Originally posted by Knifefighter
Then why is there a clip of a person demonstrating a form while standing pigeon-towed?<<

shows you have limted knowledge on the WC family, (and I don’t mean it in a negative way). Most WC people know that TWC (Traditional Wing Chun) does not advocate a pigeon toed stance. We stand with our feet parallel to each other. I uploaded one of the two Chu Shong Tin clips where he has a pigeon toed stance. There are many different lineages of WC. Mine is different from his. In boxing skipping rope is also used for timing drills and not simply warming up. There was show on Muay Thai on the Canadian History Channel that showed Thai forms and training methods. One thing said on this show was that Muay Thai the fighting art and Muay Thai boxing are very different. I’ll presume you base your info on Muay Thai the sport.