No doubt this subject has come up in the past, but does anyone have any advice on dealing with boxers during sparring? I find sticking to be difficult as most boxers withdraw their arms back to guard almost immediately after a punch has been thrown, as well as trying to keep up with someone who is constantly moving around on their toes.
Cheers..
I spar regularly with tae kwon do practitioners, a similar style of hand use but with more use of legs so it’s a simalar approach i think. With the hand withdrawl it makes lap saus almost impossible which is a shame(also made hard due to cumbersome gloves). I tend to launch a strike down the centreline and if it’s met then i might tan, bong whatever feels right, its surprising how many times people have kept a guard up but i’ve still hit their head between their raised hands. With the footwork its good practise for closing people down, sometimes cheekily steping on their front foot, especially effective against tkd people that rely on high kicks. I find my wing chun alters when fighting tkd people but the underlying principles seem to prevail, e.g. keeping a mun sau/wu sau gurad position makes people try and hook or come around the line you’ve created, thus enabling you to pivot and/or come straight down the centre before they know what’s hit them. Anyway thats what ive noticed..
Wing Chun vs Boxing
Try,
http://www.cheungswingchun.com
A boxer that trained in the peekaboo style of boxing, (Mike Tyson’s style), made a video with William Cheung entitled “Wing Chun vs. Boxing”. The tape is for sale on his site.
Why would you stick to his hands if he withdraws them. Punch the MF 
? I find sticking to be difficult as most boxers withdraw their arms back to guard almost immediately after a punch has been thrown, as well as trying to keep up with someone who is constantly moving around on their toes.
Who doesn’t pull back their arms immediately except for grappling? Is there any style that leaves their arm out or slowly withdraws? Pulling your arms back fast sounds like a good plan to me. Are you saying wing chun leaves the arms out to be “stuck” to? I think trying to “stick” is not going to work out too well. What is that going to get you, except hit?
Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
[B]
Who doesn’t pull back their arms immediately except for grappling? Is there any style that leaves their arm out or slowly withdraws? Pulling your arms back fast sounds like a good plan to me. Are you saying wing chun leaves the arms out to be “stuck” to? I think trying to “stick” is not going to work out too well. What is that going to get you, except hit? [/B]
I agree that ‘pulling your hands back fast’ is a good idea! My problem is how to deal with an opponent that keeps their guard close to their head/body, as opposed to the Wing Chun asking hand or any other style that keeps a (relatively) outstretched arm out as a guard. My reasoning for sticking isn’t to chase the hands but to know where his hands/arms are in order to utilise them (i.e. with a lap sau) or just move in and attack (- otherwise what’s the point of chi sau?).
Originally posted by Jesper [B]
Why would you stick to his hands if he withdraws them. Punch the MF [/B]
I don’t stick to his hands as they are being withdrawn. ‘Punching the MF’ isn’t quite so simple if he’s withdrawing them to his guard…and moving around quickly on the balls of his feet.
Phil - Cheers for the link!
Boxers are great to work off… just dont try to ‘spar’ with him.
Originally posted by crimsonking
Boxers are great to work off… just dont try to ‘spar’ with him.
Care to elaborate?
Boxing’s a game, and the sport has evolved to play that game. If the boxer is any good (or his boxing is as good as your wing chun) - he will always win that game. If he’s not as good as you, you should be able to win - despite the restrictions of the ring - dont play his game, go in, shut him down, destroy.
This is where the problem in sparring lies - people take away the wrong lessons - better for the ring, bad for wing chun.
Boxing’s learning curve flattens relatively quickly, wing chun just keeps going and going…
If you want to beat a boxer in a real fight, remember not to play their game ie dont spar with them.
crimsonking
Boxers are great to work off… just dont try to ‘spar’ with him.
b.i.n.g.o.
it’s a matter of you are not there ot become a better boxer but a better wing chun man , work your game not his ,
work your timing for the entry ‘’ be fore , during ,or after the jab ‘’
all these require different answers ‘’ matched or mis matched leads , length of arms , size , hand speed, mobility’’ all these are grat problems to solve but solve them in a wing chun way , which ever that wing chun way may be to you and your body type .
years ago when i first started to ''spar ‘’ boxers all i worked on was my pak say and entry , biggist mistake i made early on ws i would get in but not apply any forward oressure or intent , so i would get clocked with the over hand or the hook . later i learned to enter apply pressure and moniter the second hand this made things alot easier ,
but i never tried to jab/cross/hook with any of those guys i would have been dropped much more then what i was.
work your game , you can practice 1000 entries on a multitude of boxers and really refine it and make it adaptable .
good luck and welcome to another level of senisivity and pressure. have fun…
Boxers pay real close attention to range they use their jabs as feelers. you would need to bridge at this stage because if a boxer gets to hooking or upper cut range before you can control him your done.
monkey man:
My reasoning for sticking isn’t to chase the hands but to know where his hands/arms are in order to utilise them (i.e. with a lap sau) or just move in and attack (- otherwise what’s the point of chi sau?).
see other threads for the ‘point’ of chi sau, i wont move this off in other directions, but there is a different ‘point’.
headstock: do TKD people fight like boxers but with kicks? i dont know, i thought there were still pretty major differences between tkd and kickboxing and even kboxing isnt boxing - did you ever see boxeo cuba on discovery? VERY REVEALING!! next time it sone i’ll tape it for you
Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
[B]
Who doesn’t pull back their arms immediately except for grappling? Is there any style that leaves their arm out or slowly withdraws? [/B]
Bajiquan, but only kind of. Usually, strikes in Baji are initiated from wherever your hands happen to be. If after a strike your hand is right next to your opponent’s face, you do it from there.
To beat a good puncher, try kicking the knee, or closing the gap and using knees to the midsection and elbows to the temple and Jaw area.
Follow the punch just thrown at you back to his center line. If he has a good gaurd protecting himself, punch at it. Strike his wrist and his elbow.
Ithink the problem some people face when trying to lop-sao a boxer is that they don’t use foward energy to jam the boxer’s bridge with their bong-sao. If they did, they would be able to lop alot easier. Also lan-sao works , but basically, anything after you jam in would work. As far as their footwork is concerned-jam in! Attack, attack, attack. Fight YOUR fight, not his. Otherwise, you are playing catch-up, and will always be a step behind, trying to respond to his attack rather than entering, controling and ending the fight. I am in no way an expert, but I do see alot of Wing Chun schools lacking in aggression=especially in their defenses. Sound like an oxymoron? Depends on how you play it. My two cents
Some good points in the discussion so far.
Boxers vary in ability, style, strategy, tactics, weight, height…
a good boxing match is a chess game.
You dont want to “spar” witha boxer in the usual sense of the word- its his game. And a good boxer wont allow himself to get hurt and will lower the boom- if you try to show him up when playing his game.
A constructive thing for testing would be— when wing chun has been sufficiently reflexive for you is to geta friendly competent boxer(not the health club variety) to “play” with you and see if you can intercept, redirect, enter, jam and play your game. You may learn some things about yourself. Again- each boxer is different and some may know other things besides boxing.
Most TKD hands are nowhere neara good boxer’s hand… you will learn zilch by havinga TJD guy pose asa boxer. Muay Thai hands are better but their hands (in punching) are nowhere neara boxers because of the role of their legs and leg power.
Interestingly Vitali Klitchko knows how to kick quite well.
Stay out of their range and kick them in the legs.
what i was trying to say was that tkd’s hand techniques include jabs, punches, hooks, uppercuts, all similar to boxking, also with gloves, making open hand techniques almost impossible, i.e. lap/lop sau. But instead of just watching the hands you need to know what he’s going to do with his legs, this teaches me how to close someone down because i want to get in there and use my hands. Im not saying tkd practitioners are as good at boxing as boxers, just that the approach to the use of hands seems a bit similar. Whoever said dont’s spar due to the fact its a game/sport, i strongly agree, in tkd you cant grab or hit below the belt or on the back. When you have a strict set of rules you are not ‘fighting’ and i think it would be important to remember that when sparring otherwise you may develop a false sense of security, a lot of high kicks can be met with a sweep/grab/kick to standing leg in reality, however in sparring this wont happen. I hope i havent gone to far off the point, what do you all think?
i think you went too far off the point mate
but i’m just the forum fool
when fighting a boxer with your hands only, you need timing and commitment to enter, and yes, leaving your kicks out of the game, is not you trying to box, but you developing better hands. work your kicks at other times.
when a boxer jabs or fakes a jab, what do you do? do you try to block? if so, your playing the wrong game, because if you try to block the jab, most times he fakes that jab, and gets you open, and the same hand turns to a hook to your jaw, and you hurting. and boxers have great sense of distance and timing.
one thing i learned in wt, which was effective for me, is when the opponet is within range to hit, as soon a you see the shoulder move at all, you eneter, and interupt his timing, whether he faked, or threw the jab, you crashed him, and yes, its easier said than done, but if you work it over and over, you will succeddwhat technique to enter with, cannot be explained by writing, you would need to see it. but i have watched many wc guys try to practice drills blocking a jab/cross/hook, and in my opinion, it will never work, boxers are way to fast, the punches will come high and low, fast, etc, you will not see a jab cross hook combo coming.
also, remeber the kuen kut, recieve what comes, follow what goes, if you did stop his jab, you need to follow his hand back to his body, and be as fast as he is, again, its timing, and if he is just peek a boo, you need to throw ot punches as high and low reference points,and once there is contact do your thing.
try any of the above, but the wt way works for me,intercept,and stick,try to get behind him, or to the outside, when entering, its very dangerous down the middle, with a boxer.
take your time with this, and dont give up, give it a year, and you will be doing what alot of guys dont do.working reality, then when you feel your hands can hang with a boxer, then use your feet,and see how much better you are, but be prepared to get hit alot for the first few months, when i first tried stopping grapplers in training, i got slammed over and over, like stallone getting slammed by hogan in rocky 3, but these things are better learned in the practice, than in the street