Boxing & Wing Chun

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Would like to continue and expand upon some of what was discussed on the “Strongest Punch” thread…

I for one believe that it is possible to successfully mix elements of boxing with wing chun - and that the end result could potentially be more than the sum total of its parts:

in other words, better than either one by itself.

But whether you agree with that last statement or not, here are three boxing clips that I invite people to look at and discuss; and from the wing chun point-of-view, describe how you might be able to add some of what you see into your wing chun game.

Some of this has already been covered on the other thread, but if those who posted there want to reiterate some of what they already said…not a problem. Do it.

I have some definite ideas about the three clips I’m posting (and I’ve worked with some of what’s on the Marciano and the Louis clip in class) - but I’d like to hear from you guys a bit.

…

Mike Tyson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxeXAs_bGKM

…………………………………..

Joe Louis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R78hdxpRfws

…………………….

Rocky Marciano

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b0yHvw-vW0
2

You’re talking about synergy. It’s (in this case) when the benefits of the combined systems working together exceeds the benefits of each system working individually towards the same goal.

I don’t really look at things of adding this to that. I learn different things, and they come out however they come out in fighting. I don’t have the intention of “I’m going to start using that boxing stance with my wing chun punch” or “I’m going to add in the mexican hook in with my wing chun”.

Everything has it’s place in time, and those things come out as appropriate as deemed by the situation. If a real fight, I’m not going to be thinking about whether or not to use this style or that style, I’m just going to try and hit the guy as much as possible without being hit myself. I’m going to try and control the situation as much as possible, and to be honest probably try to get away as soon as possible (since in real life you don’t “win”…you “survive”).

Does that make sense? But thanks for the clips…great boxing is a thing of beauty. So many similarities in boxing and wing chun…they do mesh together so well.

3

That’s a good post Van, and is the way I look at it too.

Anyone is free to do whatever they want to do with their training, all sorts of people crosstrain in various things, I have two students that train in other arts beside Wing Chun, it’s no problem for me, although I have said to them that learning two striking systems at the sametime may give them some problems and I have seen some come up in their development.

The real question is why or does one need to learn boxing and combining it with their Wing Chun? Is it really that hard to learn how to throw jabs and crosses from the outside? IMO it isn’t. Of course I wouldn’t be able to compete with a good boxer in that deptartment, but I wouldn’t box a boxer in the first place, lol. There’s no problem with training with boxers and sparring with them to learn their timing and MO, but for me to actually have to take out time to train in a gym, based on what I want to do regarding MA training, it would be a definitive NO. I can see Victor’s point about learning the outside striking game, but IMO it’s not necessary to train in boxing. I posted a clip of Bas Rutten talking about his method of striking, and to me it looks like he’s anti boxing as well, as most of stuff he talked about was very similar to what is taught in WC striking (fighting relatively square, keeping elbows in, no pivoting at the foot, using legs as a power source, etc..).

James

4

Good thoughts James.

I have yet to see where doing anything in boxing could hinder my gung fu. In fact its helped me to be able to punch far stronger, and given me a more natural way of punching that I can throw from any place, any angle, no matter what the situation is.

Like you said…I wouldn’t be able to handle a real boxer, but my skills combined in a fight might be able to put me ahead. Hence Victor’s idea of synergy.

5

Wing Chun as a whole should just incooperate boxing as Muay Thai did. It is ridiculous to say to yourself that, “to be a credible Wing Chun fighter I must, learn boxing, Muay Thai, and…” Instructors need to figure out a way to bring it all together much more tightly.

6

It would make too much sense from a fighting perspective, but traditionalists have a fear that the Kung Fu part will be lost, which I don’t think would be the case.

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[QUOTE=sihing;998951]That’s a good post Van, and is the way I look at it too.

Anyone is free to do whatever they want to do with their training, all sorts of people crosstrain in various things, I have two students that train in other arts beside Wing Chun, it’s no problem for me, although I have said to them that learning two striking systems at the sametime may give them some problems and I have seen some come up in their development.

The real question is why or does one need to learn boxing and combining it with their Wing Chun? Is it really that hard to learn how to throw jabs and crosses from the outside? IMO it isn’t. Of course I wouldn’t be able to compete with a good boxer in that deptartment, but I wouldn’t box a boxer in the first place, lol. There’s no problem with training with boxers and sparring with them to learn their timing and MO, but for me to actually have to take out time to train in a gym, based on what I want to do regarding MA training, it would be a definitive NO. I can see Victor’s point about learning the outside striking game, but IMO it’s not necessary to train in boxing. I posted a clip of Bas Rutten talking about his method of striking, and to me it looks like he’s anti boxing as well, as most of stuff he talked about was very similar to what is taught in WC striking (fighting relatively square, keeping elbows in, no pivoting at the foot, using legs as a power source, etc..).

James[/QUOTE]

but if you don’t have a coach how do you know what you are doing is right? its like me saying ill learn wing chun from watching youtube and sparring some guys, afterall all all i want to do is learn the bong sau and the straight punch, how hard can it be:eek:

Without a coach alot of the finer points of the straight punches gets lost, how to set them up, how to angle off, how and when to use them in combinations etc… I have watched a good coach destroy pro foghters just using the jab and nothing else, its not just about the mechanics of the punch.
do you need to become a boxer? no but if you don’t get qualified instruction how on earth will you get good at it?

If you want to see what happens when people try to learn a seemingly simple technique without proper coaching go look at how many people manage to screw up the simple doubly leg:)

8

Good thoughts so far, and while I agree 100% that it’s synergy and not “now I box and then I do wing chun”, Van…as the end product…

nonetheless I’ve found it helpful to put on a boxing hat and work things during drills, shadow boxing, sparring…and of course put on the “wing chun only” hat and do that…in the beginning of trying to marry the two…

and then try to work with both hats unconsciously during sparring, heavy bag work, etc. later on.

9

Picking up on…

…my last post, I started what we can now call (thanks, Van) the synergy thing by learning how to throw stiff straight leads, jabs, and rear crosses - and then started using them from a distance as a gap closer to get to a more close quarters wing chun range…and then literally put on the wing chun hat as - as long as I stayed in that range.

But then I started working with close quarters boxing moves, ie.- hooks, uppercuts, etc…and tried to analyze when this made sense from close quarters and when a more wing chun approach made sense…

and then later on realized during sparring that the straight leads and rear crosses (and by now I added a Fedor-like overhand punch and a hook off the jab)…could often work from long range as big moves all by themselves - and not simply as a means of getting to closer quarters…

so it became a back and forth process - and this is what leads to the synergy; and needless to say, all this has to be pressure tested with full contact sparring (including knees, elbows, clinch work, and kicking)…constantly.

Here’s just some examples…as a drill on the heavy bag, we sometimes do this: a stiff straight lead followed by a very heavy rear cross - and by the time the bag flies back into you - you’ve dropped your elbows down-and-in and step forward with 3-4 vertical fist wing chun punches - followed by a rear knee strike or a rear horizontal elbow strike. (Or both)

And then sometimes no wing chun punches as the followup to the lead/cross…but rather, hooks and uppercuts instead.

And then maybe combinations once in close using all the moves, ie.- vertical fists, hooks, uppercuts, knees, elbows…and longer round punches as the bag starts to move away from you…or maybe a rear front kick, heel kick, or roundhouse kick from the longer distance, etc.

So the idea in the end is to let it all mesh together using different tools from different ranges without stopping to label them.

And the same with blocking, redirecting, and avoidance defensive moves - and all of the corresponding footwork.

10

[QUOTE=Vankuen;998956]It would make too much sense from a fighting perspective, but traditionalists have a fear that the Kung Fu part will be lost, which I don’t think would be the case.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately the most ardent traditionalists are completely clueless. Classical Wing Chun will not survive as it has. I think that the marriage is going to happen whether traditionalist want it or not. Better to be on the forefront of change to wisely guide it than to foolishly ignore it and be marginalized.

11

When you mix black and white you will get gray. In other words, both colors become altered. With fighting systems it is not always beneficial, especially if they work on or by certain concepts. If you add boxing to Wing Chun it will alter the concepts that drive it. If you add Wing Chun to boxing, again you will have to forget or forsake some of the driving concepts that make Wing Chun work. I personally don’t see where either one would benefit from this. I have boxed as a young man, so I am fully aware of what boxing is about. On the other hand, I have done Wing Chun for a very long time, and I am fully aware of the concepts that are the driving force. I would not consider mixing the two.

12

lets get into specifics.

what about boxing would you add to wing chun?

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[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;998987]When you mix black and white you will get gray. In other words, both colors become altered. With fighting systems it is not always beneficial, especially if they work on or by certain concepts. If you add boxing to Wing Chun it will alter the concepts that drive it. If you add Wing Chun to boxing, again you will have to forget or forsake some of the driving concepts that make Wing Chun work. I personally don’t see where either one would benefit from this. I have boxed as a young man, so I am fully aware of what boxing is about. On the other hand, I have done Wing Chun for a very long time, and I am fully aware of the concepts that are the driving force. I would not consider mixing the two.[/QUOTE]

The current sense is that Wing Chun as an art is an utter failure so how could losing it’s character be bad? If one is just interested in preserving techniques and tactics as a way of preserving the past, I suppose that is okay, but I think that students have to be made aware of that when they come in the door.

14

[QUOTE=Pacman;998997]lets get into specifics.

what about boxing would you add to wing chun?[/QUOTE]

The first thing that I would do is establish WC full-contact tournaments so the nonsense would get exposed.

I would also try to establish a rule system in the tournaments that encouraged trapping.

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;998999]The first thing that I would do is establish WC full-contact tournaments so the nonsense would get exposed.

I would also try to establish a rule system in the tournaments that encouraged trapping.[/QUOTE]

but i assume you want to mix more into WC than just the sport aspect

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;998998]The current sense is that Wing Chun as an art is an utter failure so how could losing it’s character be bad? If one is just interested in preserving techniques and tactics as a way of preserving the past, I suppose that is okay, but I think that students have to be made aware of that when they come in the door.[/QUOTE]

Well, I certainly don’t consider it a failure. I personally consider it to be the ultimate fighting system. If a person feels that Wing Chun is such a failure, then why in the world would he want to incorperate it into any fighting system. Why not just go with boxing as it is? Or even mix and match boxing with something else all together?
If a person does not believe in his fighting system he certainly has no business staying with it. It can’t serve him. My theory here is that if someone suggests mixing boxing with Wing Chun they really don’t have an understanding of Wing Chun principals to start with. If it can’t serve you now, it certainly won’t if you go mixing and matching it with boxing or some other completely different concept.

17

[QUOTE=Pacman;999003]but i assume you want to mix more into WC than just the sport aspect[/QUOTE]

I would absolutely like to add some elements from boxing and kickboxing into WC but it isn’t worth arguing about. I am tired of the nonsense. People just need to run their students to fights against evenly matched opponents and demonstrate that their method works or be marginalized.

18

[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;999004]Well, I certainly don’t consider it a failure. I personally consider it to be the ultimate fighting system. If a person feels that Wing Chun is such a failure, then why in the world would he want to incorperate it into any fighting system. Why not just go with boxing as it is? Or even mix and match boxing with something else all together?
If a person does not believe in his fighting system he certainly has no business staying with it. It can’t serve him. My theory here is that if someone suggests mixing boxing with Wing Chun they really don’t have an understanding of Wing Chun principals to start with. If it can’t serve you now, it certainly won’t if you go mixing and matching it with boxing or some other completely different concept.[/QUOTE]

Basically people are teaching an expanded principle guided curriculum which should have boxing elements or their art is probably insufficient.

19

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;999013]Basically people are teaching an expanded principle guided curriculum which should have boxing elements or their art is probably insufficient.[/QUOTE]

So, WCK without “boxing” is insufficient?

Is “boxing” without WCK insufficient?

Is “boxing”, as is, insufficient?

WCK has about a “billion” more tools and techniques and more ranges than “boxing” yet somehow it is insufficient without also using “boxing”?:o:rolleyes:

20

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;998998]The current sense is that Wing Chun as an art is an utter failure so how could losing it’s character be bad?
[/QUOTE]

It’s not the art that is an “utter failure”, it is the PEOPLE WHO ARE PRACTICING THE ART that are an utter failure.

If one is just interested in preserving techniques and tactics as a way of preserving the past, I suppose that is okay, but I think that students have to be made aware of that when they come in the door.

Who is it that is teaching the students when they “come in the door”? People who can’t make their WCK work but nonetheless feel the need to teach others.

Maybe, just maybe, people should not try to teach things they cannot do particularly well.

To all you people talking about boxing: Have you spent some significant time training boxing with a decent coach? Have you trained boxing like a boxer, putting in hundreds of rounds of sparring with good boxers so as to develop competent boxing skills?

If not, then what makes you think that you are competent to talk about boxing? Or to teach boxing?

Guess what? If you haven’t done that, then your boxing will suck just like your WCK. And, it isn’t boxing’s fault.