you are not alone. i too can see that in some instances it would be effective, even indespenseable, but i also realize it’s shortcomings. i believe it to be an ideal state or accomplishment, but because of it’s advanced nature it seems natural that it is easily overcome by simplicity. this is really what i was getting at with the statement “theoretical kung fu”, and i think it is this so called advanced method(s) that really allows alot of other styles to over shadow cma in competition. in fact, isn’t it a reality that because kf is so advanced that karate and other stylists (don’t understand it"- resulting in poor scores. now i’m all for cma, it is all that i believe in as a whole- concerning ma, but such techniques in my mind are best pursued, used as a goal, and useful, mostt useful against one with a similar level of ability.
Originally posted by Ye Gor
[B]Paul Lin wrote: "When whole body force meets the local force, the local force will injur. So even though you can have the local limp strikes arrived faster, but the whole body force can just take on position and wait there for your arrival(Ye Yi Dai Lao). That is why faster not always get the job done. "
See, Paul Lin, that’s exactly what doesn’t make sense to me.
If the ‘local limp strikes’ arrive faster, how can ‘whole body force just take on position and wait there for your arrival’??? If the strike arrives FASTER, how can the body be ALREADY WAITING for it? Are you reading my mind to know exactly what I’m targeting, or what?
ps: I’ve always been under the impression that fast+precise will always rule over power/strength. No matter how ‘limp’ or ‘local’ a strike is, when it smacks you in the nose/eye/throat/temple/neck/groin, it’ll feel pretty powerful to you (the recepient).
pps: I can see whole-body-defense used for the more powerful (and slower) strikes, especially the big one-timers (one punch, one kill). But to claim that whole-body-defense is a cure-all, I just can’t see it. I guess I really have to see it. Sorry Pong Lai, a trip to Tampa is nowhere on my agenda in the near future. Why not come to Boulder? [/B]
The “Ye Yi Dai Lao” method will take longer time to explain. Will do that later when have time. It can also combine with “Lian Xiao Dai Da”, in which attack while deflects attack at the same time. Also the method of “Huo Fa Chih Ren” That are what we used to deal with limp attack with whole body. I hope some one who understand what I am talking about will share some experience and knowledge.
Ps. there are only so many weak parts you can reach with fast limp attack, it is not difficult to deal with. You just have to stick to a few rules to make them work. Does not matter where you are going to attack on the body.
I am by far less qualified on this subject then most here, but do feel that the fastest attack can be avoided or at least have it’s impact reduced simply by changing the angle of the body. At that point the two combatants are in close range and it’s anyone’s game. Readjust the body place on body check. Game point speed is not restricted to the appendages. Personal view may not even be connected the the subject mater.
Couldn’t fully grasp what Frogman stated, but it sounded right on.
I guess the question to you would be, how do you block a jab and then a round house (or over the top straight punch)punch (can also be followed with another roundhouse if not countered)?
How about another quick boxing combo..Jab, upper, and over the top or roundhouse? Maybe a continuous straight punch charge (like you use to like to throw)?
Lift up your hands? Lean back? Move back?
As you, I am not talking Tai Chi speed strikes.
Not a trick question, interested in learning your tactics!
Pong Lai,
Mantis108 has a small exercise that deals with something like this.
Although no jabs, but the punches to the solar plexus are similar when done at top speed/power.
They are coupled with two hook punches.
The defender just blocks the 5 punches and then rushes forward with his 5 punch.
It is so easy that even a beginner has a chance to feel what it is like to play with top speed and power while really trying to hit the opponent.
Even though the drill is set in the beginning with no changes allowed, but you still get hit.
That is something that always amazed me… even though I know the drill I still managed to get hit.
With Mantis 108’s exercise, is the defender blocking with his forearms, closing off the punches? How is the transition when the defender turns into the attacker? Kinda like the Lu Lu / Fan Cha two man drill? Shrfu seems to have taught one about 6 years ago, similar to the Mantis 108 description of yours.
Though an attacking multiple straight punch is unpleasant to defend, I do not feel it is as difficult to react to as a high/low, etc. combo.
How do most fighters react to a jab? This can be said to be the “fastest” punch out there. A good jab, you don’t have time to catch it out of mid air with a mantis hook, not quick enough to parry (stick) close his forearm as he jabs, what do most of the mantis fighters do to defend/attack? Eliminating kicks.
With any combination, whether mantis, w. boxing, or anything else, I normally drill several combos (3 to 5) over an hour’s time. This drilling starts with partners standing in one spot, one delivering the combo and one monitoring it. The delivery side and the monitoring side normally follow along the lines of and established form (ie Chau Choy, Bung Bo, etc.). The pace picks up rapidly b/c both sides are static and repititious which is the point.
The next phase is the inter-disperse the said combos. This slows the drill down quiet a bit, being that the monitoring side know all the delivery methods, but not in which order. The help the proactive side measure distance, delivery, and rythym issues and the reactive distance and visual ques.
The third is like the first, only movement is allowed, so only the proactive side know when the attack begins. This helps with footwork, delivery, rythym, and technical application. Things tend to get sloppy at this point, so moving from slow with good technique to progressively faster.
And forth, is a combination of phase two and three.
I could go on, but I think you get the point. It starts out with a static technique or idea demonstrated usually found in a PM form, then moves on to a progressively fluid situation until it becomes sparring or fighting.
Sometime, though, that jab or kick gets you anyway.
Nice to hear of your training method. Definitely can pinpoint the “Pi” and detect “Tsai” in the drills. Basically you are aware that learning the tech and then moving right into 'free" sparring is not going to allow you to be a better CMA or fighter in any style.
It is inevitable that you may get hit at some point or another.
Originally posted by Pong Lai
[B]With Mantis 108’s exercise, is the defender blocking with his forearms, closing off the punches? How is the transition when the defender turns into the attacker? Kinda like the Lu Lu / Fan Cha two man drill? Shrfu seems to have taught one about 6 years ago, similar to the Mantis 108 description of yours.
Though an attacking multiple straight punch is unpleasant to defend, I do not feel it is as difficult to react to as a high/low, etc. combo.
How do most fighters react to a jab? This can be said to be the “fastest” punch out there. A good jab, you don’t have time to catch it out of mid air with a mantis hook, not quick enough to parry (stick) close his forearm as he jabs, what do most of the mantis fighters do to defend/attack? Eliminating kicks. [/B]
I would do a Bung and then step up with Pi. Then follow up with TaioTunChuai, left and right.
How do most fighters react to a jab? This can be said to be the “fastest” punch out there. A good jab, you don’t have time to catch it out of mid air with a mantis hook, not quick enough to parry (stick) close his forearm as he jabs, what do most of the mantis fighters do to defend/attack? Eliminating kicks.
How do you get to san fran? Good ? Depends on where you start from. my point is position is evrything . Shan fa or body movement is not only reactive . we all have been taking a very reactive point of view on this . on the proactive side, positioning your self , useing good lines along with ting jin will always lessen an attackers options.
from my point of view let him or her I won’t be sexist worry about dealing w/ the attacks, mine.
Iwas talking to a friend today and he said something very intresting I’d like to share " If it’s going to go down , then lets get over w/. He is a golf pro , sounds like mantis golf to me.
On the subject of action reaction I was doing some electrical work for a friend recently, which was a big favor since I had to spend four hours under a house crawling around and working on my back. This can be good training, for the first hour. Anyway, I was nailing a junction box right above my face and dropped it. There was not much that I could do at this point since the box was beyond my hands so no chance to block. I did not have much time with the box accelerating toward my face at 9.8 m/s sq. from a distance of less then 18”. Of course I did not think about it I just moved my head and avoided a box in the eye. If there were more then one box coming at me I most likely would have eaten one, laying on my back in a crawl space I did not have much maneuverability, even as a frog. I would like to add that I feel good KF sense can be used for more then just defending an attack from another person it is also good for defending against a box in the eye, or a door in the face, a heavy weight on the foot, and drop but catch so not to have to bend. All these things are more likely to happen to me daily, but that is another subject altogether.
RibHit
fm
PS. Sorry I have no recent fighting experiences to talk about other then some light sparring, atleast none I’m willing to talk about.
How do most fighters react to a jab? This can be said to be the “fastest” punch out there. A good jab, you don’t have time to catch it out of mid air with a mantis hook, not quick enough to parry (stick) close his forearm as he jabs, what do most of the mantis fighters do to defend/attack? Eliminating kicks.
How do you get to san fran? Good ? Depends on where you start from. my point is position is evrything . Shan fa or body movement is not only reactive . we all have been taking a very reactive point of view on this . on the proactive side, positioning your self , useing good lines along with ting jin will always lessen an attackers options.
from my point of view let him or her I won’t be sexist worry about dealing w/ the attacks, mine.
Iwas talking to a friend today and he said something very intresting I’d like to share " If it’s going to go down , then lets get over w/. He is a golf pro , sounds like mantis golf to me. [/B]
For the fastest punch–jab, you can use bung + pi and followed either by tiao-tung-chuan when not too close, if too close, use the big-waterwheel-throw. Another one is the chuan-chuai follow by bung-chuai or throw. The main reason for that is I don’t have to wait till my opponenet to start jab, these 2 combos are design to walk in and finish off with or without your opponent’s attack. As long as your opponent are in your reatch, you can start it before your opponent reatch out for a jab.
To conter it (these hard techniques that I metioned above) is possible with soft/sticky techniques to begin with, and that is availible in many styles, not just in 8 step mantis. And each style would have different advantages in the aspect of different body types, personality.
Frogman ,
I guess your quick reaction doesn’t have much to do with your Martial Art training!!! I’ve learned that human has ,so called “protection-reactions”. For example when you move something to your eyes quickly ,your eye will close by sure. The difference to normal reactions is the neurotic control: In the regular case, the stimulus which you receive will go through your vertebral column to your brain first and then back to the reactor (muscle). When you do a protection-reaction ,the stimulus will go to the vertebral column and then straight back to the muscle. So you don’t need your brain for this reaction.
I am not sure about that you are able to make this reaction faster. I think ,what you learn in Martial Arts is to CONTROL these reactions. I mean when you punch a NON- M - artist right into his face he will also try to protect his head with his arms. But a M-artist will do what he did a hundred times in training. And in this case it won’t be such a “protection-reaction” ,because he controls his movement!!!
but if this tech- which i do not know by the way- overwhelms the fastest punch available, it would seem to be the ultimate tech. especially if it can be applied w/out the opponent even striking.
i don’t think there is such a grand technique, that is just what i am understanding you to say
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