Mantis in Sport Fighting

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
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[I also posted this on the Mantis Qtly Form…]

Someone should come up with a class on this. Lately I’ve been watching a lot of UFC reruns on Spike TV. I always wonder what moves, footwork, etc. from mantis could be incorporated in sport fighting, either sanshou or mma. The gloves worn in mma fighting may be more conducive to mantis, I’m not sure what they use in sanshou.

Do any of you watch UFC or other sport fighting and try to analyze technique? It seems that the punches are more muscle and arm generated instead of from the waist or core. Also, the kicks never come back faster than they go out, making it easy to steal someones balance. What about bouncing vs gliding, angle, or circular stepping vs. straight in? Of course you would have to scrutinize the rules to see what is allowed.

Also, while I’m on a rant, what about mantis techniques for point sparring. Even though I have won trophies in it, I really hate karate point sparring; but that is all we have around here. It’s like there are two paradigms. One for when you go to tournaments to spar and one when you are actually learning your style. It blows my mind that I am reduced to about three basic techniques when I spar. Why can’t we spar using techniques and concepts we supposedly learn through forms? Granted, there is some overlap but…

And finally, would I use any of my Mantis/Shaolin concepts in a street fight? Or does self defense boil down to a few generic concepts and the style doesn’t really matter.

It does seem that I receive conflicting messages in my training…anyone else feel this way

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Someone should come up with a class on this. Lately I’ve been watching a lot of UFC reruns on Spike TV. I always wonder what moves, footwork, etc. from mantis could be incorporated in sport fighting, either sanshou or mma. The gloves worn in mma fighting may be more conducive to mantis, I’m not sure what they use in sanshou.

[B]Sanshou uses a boxing glove…12-16 oz.

I think a big misconception about mantis is that it’s all ‘mantis hooking’
this is not true, imo, and there are plenty of pressing/sealing techniques that could be effective w/o the use of the fingers.[/B]

Do any of you watch UFC or other sport fighting and try to analyze technique? It seems that the punches are more muscle and arm generated instead of from the waist or core. Also, the kicks never come back faster than they go out, making it easy to steal someones balance. What about bouncing vs gliding, angle, or circular stepping vs. straight in? Of course you would have to scrutinize the rules to see what is allowed.

[B]beyond attacks to the eyes, throat and groin there is nothing in any mma ruleset that would disallow any ‘mantis’ technique.

i don’t know that I’d say that it would be so easy to steal someones balance just because they follow through with the kick. generally they are immediately following through with arm attacks and you are not only having to deal with the considerable power these guys are generating (power is power no matter if it’s muscularly generated or ‘waist generated’…and I’m not sure that is a real distinction anyway.) you also have to worry about the head shots coming at you as you try to steal their balance.[/B]

Also, while I’m on a rant, what about mantis techniques for point sparring. Even though I have won trophies in it, I really hate karate point sparring; but that is all we have around here. It’s like there are two paradigms. One for when you go to tournaments to spar and one when you are actually learning your style. It blows my mind that I am reduced to about three basic techniques when I spar. Why can’t we spar using techniques and concepts we supposedly learn through forms? Granted, there is some overlap but…

anything you do should be usable in any venue…you have to understand and train the rules so that you can be effective within them. If you have won trophies then you were effective…why worry?

And finally, would I use any of my Mantis/Shaolin concepts in a street fight? Or does self defense boil down to a few generic concepts and the style doesn’t really matter.

‘fighting’ boils down to some basic concepts that should be found in any style.

It does seem that I receive conflicting messages in my training…anyone else feel this way

if there is a conflicting message, it’s not in the material but how it’s being presented.

just my thoughts on the issue…which shouldn’t be an issue to start with.

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Hey Taichimantis…

I take it that you’re a student of Master Lee. I personally think he’s awesome. I’ve seen him do some demonstrations with gim technique that are top notch.

One of your Master’s friends is Master Chan who teaches Jow Ga and Wing Chun. He had a student named Duncan Duffin who may be in Grand Rapids. He did move to train with Cung Le’s team in LA for a while, but he may be back now. He’s very good in TCMA… but, he made the transition to do San Shou almost exclusively now. He is a black belt in Judo, has experience in Muay Thai, and BJJ. He has a good and established fight record. He isn’t Mantis, but he knows Bung Bo and is a top-notch Jow Ga guy.

Talk to him about some of your issues.

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Thanks…it would be interesting to talk to someone who started in TCMA to see if that training has helped them in sport fighting.

Actually, I’m a student of a sifu who was authorized to teach Tai Chi Praying Mantis under the late grandmaster David Cheng of Hawaii. Grandmaster Cheng was a school brother to Grandmaster Lee; both of them were disciples of Chui Chuk Kai who taught TCPM in Vietnam. Our class meets at the Michigan Athletic Club at Burton and Breton on Tues-Thurs. I have met Master Chan, a very gracious man. I introduced myself when I bought my staff from his shop. Master Chan told me about Henry Chung’s tournament in Midland. I attended the tournament last year with my sifu and was introduced to Grandmaster Lee and some of his students. I’ve also seen his demonstrations at Festival. You are right, he truly knows his stuff!

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Well it’s not a matter of coming up with a class for it. Pretty much everything in our line of mantis can be used. Accept for headbutts, small things like holding on to shorts, eye gouges or groin strikes of coarse aren’t allowed. But basic striking and throwing is allowed so it would be a matter of training for sport fighting period using mantis tactics and mindset. I think it would go over very well.

As for kicking etc. There is a lot of things I wish some of those guys would do more and do less. As for angles etc It depends on who you’re fighting whether you want to stand in front of them or move. You see all the openings and where they could do this or that and you’re like “ah let it fly” but it’s easier when looking from the outside in. :slight_smile: I’d like to see more bump kicks and foot stomps. Way more elbows in close instead of forearm strikes. I realize that these guys aren’t in it for the long haul so certain strikes like destructions aren’t used as much. Although I think elbows on hook lines to the main arm muscles and leg muscles will end things a lot quicker than some might realize. I’d like to see throws like we do where you just let go of the guy in mid throw causing more damage than holding on to the guy while going down just so you can ground and pound. The only thing with this is a lot of those guys will clinche right away forcing both of you to go down any way. So it’s a matter of being able to execute the throw properly and cleanly I guess.

These guys are cross training using what they know works, tai boxing, boxing, jujitsu etc. Until someone comes along and shows a superior striking, throwing, and grappling then that’s what they’re going to stick with.

Yes mantis is very useful in the street and yes I have used it. Whether they were generic concepts or not isn’t the point. If it’s something you’re training and you use it then that’s all that really matters whether it’s the bare basic or most advanced. It really depends on who you’re training with and how as to whether you’re going to be able to use it when it matters.

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right.

if you want to fight with mantis you have to fight with it.

forms, drills, etc. are just the beginning.

one thing that I do in a tie up that confounded my training partners in jujitsu is something that i feel I got from mantis: utilizing my elbows against the chest to control their balance better while have have a double neck hook.

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Just watched one of those fights last night. I think that if a traditional mantis guy went in there they would have their head handed to them.

Two or three techniques then down on the ground. Most of these guys could take a couple of shots untill they got a hold of the mantis guy.

But this is against people who train to fight. It is a different story defending yourself against the guy on the street who has not trained or has littlle “real” training. Mantis is very effective for that. No doubt about it.

I have said before the only way to know is get a mantis guy in there to find out. If somone would compete in these types of tournaments and get the head handed to them using mantis, that should tell you something.

Out of all of these types of fights has anyone ever heard of a traditioanal mantis guy being a big winner in any of these organiztions. Using Mantis techniques not bjj.

I can tell you one thing. It wont be me in there :slight_smile:

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taichimantis,
actully my friend and kung fu brother Joel Sutton whom I used to train with in Buffalo and in SF entered the UFC #6 representing 8 step praying mantis and yes taught by James Shyun as an alternative and won.

He was then invited back into UFC#7 in Buffalo NY as a main event and also won… it was deemed the bloodiest UFC match in history after joel head butted the guy, split his forhead open and stuck his thumbs in the skin and ripped it open. you can still rent the Buffalo fight at blockbuster. and read about it on our news clippings button on our website www.eightstep.com

He was the first mantis style practioner to enter the old UFC and proved himself and our style worthy of MMA.

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Well look at the tools used. Punching, kicking, throwing, grappling. Mantis excels in everything but modern ground fighting. So why couldn’t a mantis guy cross train for that aspect and do well? It just simply has to be done and trained. I made my attempt at getting back into fighting shape and ended up hurting my back again.. I just can’t do the road work any more with my back to keep up the stamina needed for that. In the long haul my back can’t keep up any more when I push it too hard, I was hoping to get back into fighting shape and enter the cage at some local events here, but it’s just not going to happen. I’d love to get a hold of some kid who had the drive to do this and was willing to fight and train him, I know I could make a great competitor out of him in the cage.

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Before you guys go a little too crazy and attempt MMA… try a San Shou event first. Do a google search and watch the fight between Duncan Duffin and Albert Pope. It’s all over on-line and you can download it for free if you register @ www.subfighter.com.

Mantis is good… there’s no doubt about that… but, it’s up to the individual to train the way they want to fight. Is Mantis all inclusive to where it’d do well in MMA? I don’t know because honestly I haven’t trained in it long enough or hard enough to find out. I do know that I’ve become a much better all around fighter since I started training Judo and MMA for the last couple of years. I did fight in a San Shou tournament a couple of years ago and got my arse handed to me because I didn’t train correctly. I was too traditional for the fight. Now I know that I’ll do fine in a San Shou match because experience has taught me what works and doesn’t work and I’ve changed how I train.

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but, the problem is getting hung up on ‘traditional mantis’. imo, ‘traditional mantis’ will get eaten alive. but, it is my belief that mantis has the tools but the training paradigm needs to change and some things will have to be set aside as ‘low %’ for ring use.

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agreed. but, sadly there are too many people who think that cross training in jujitsu, judo or bjj is like selling your soul to the devil. Almost all CMA is deficient in ground grappling. People are just having a hard time admitting it.

I have one who wants it. we’re going to do some more local stuff, including a full contact lei tai next may and then go to the US Kuoshuo in Baltimore next year. then we’re going to step over to san shou and then see where we are then.

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in your experience, do you feel that you could use mantis and do well (with the exception of ground work) if you utilized training concepts you’ve learned in judo and mma?

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Good luck with that, I’m sure you’ll do well.. :slight_smile:

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This is the kind of discussion I was hoping to spur. You have to look at the principles behind the moves and stances in the forms and then see how you can adjust them for the ring or for real life attacks in today’s world (which is dominated by weapons other than hands and feet).

Of course the concept of “winning” in sport fighting is…well…just different.

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Hi Shirkers

I dont think that ground fighting is that new of a concept. In fact if we do some research it probably predates mantis.

I think a mantis guy could do well in that type of fighting. I do think he would have to alter the way it is done traditionally. Which is one thing that I believe the mantis has going for it. From what I have been taught the mantis does not have to be done in the exact same way each time you use a technique. So it is a perfect style to adapt. I think that is more important in the real situation then sitting around talking about jing and where the power comes from. If you are learning a fighting style you should be able to strike with some power and effectivness.

The founder of mantis (wong lang :rolleyes: ) who ever that may be, obsorbed and adapted techniques form other styles to make his/their system work. It is still happening today. This is another reason I think a mantis practitioner could do well.

Mighty B

Yep, san shou is the only fighting we do in our school besides the normal two person sets and drills.

But dont get me wrong. I am not saying my school is known for great fighters or that I am an authority on this type of fighting. I just think it is better and have less injuries to students than with the light contact.

We do some of what people call cotuinuous light contact sparring. But I call it by what it really is. Tag. I let them tag to shoulders, chest center line, and legs. It helps with blocking as some coordination and timing. The guys who used to hurt people in the light contact wont do the san shou. Imagine that.

Oso

Just read your post, seems we think the same way

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why do you think that?

there are certainly differences between light contact ‘tag’ sparring and full contact but the name of the game is control is it not?

I think it’s totally beneficial to apply your mind to figuring out how to use what you know in a limited fashion. maybe you can’t do some of what you feel is stylistically inherent in you but I just consider it an exercise in application.

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I never said it was a new concept. I said “modern ground fighter”, these guys train in BJJ etc so you’d have to know how to counter their moves. So at least a limited knowledge of what they have to offer is essential when you’re thrown in there with guys who want to go there. Take a guy like chuck, he’d rather stand up then grapple with you, because that is his strength. But if need be he can ground and pound and sprawl to counter going down. He knows he’s not a great submission guy so he’d rather stand up. I myself have never been that much of a slouch on the ground using mantis tactics. I’ve never wrestled in school etc but I can use common sense as to body positioning etc to handle myself just fine. The past few years I started working and looking into BJJ and how they do things and it’s helped even more. I still concider myself a stand up fighter though…

The way you’ve been taught is the same way I’ve been taught, traditional in forms but a lot more modern when applied.

As for your “sitting around talking about jing” comment I don’t know if that was a dig or what but the question was where does the power come from while throwing a strike etc. So that is why I answered the way I did on that subject. I think if you look it clearly says by me that if you “train” the mechanics correctly and not meditate on the earths gravitational pull you’ll be fine.

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nope not a dig at all

I just think people try to get to involved with the “where the power comes form”. An experienced shotokan guy will probably hit with a straight punch just as hard as a mantis guy. Power generation is fairly simple.

Comment had absolutely nothing to do with you at all.

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:slight_smile: okay, just checking cause it sounded like we were on the same page thought wise up till that point.