Jack of all trades, master of none?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
1

I was doing 1 step with my sifu today which eventually moved into semi-free step and at one point my sifu broke out onto me in classical Wing Chun chain punches. I blocked as good as I could and entered trapping range, which then using Wing Chun he continued to wipe the floor with me, in a nice manner of course :wink:

The point he made was that if you come up against some-one whom does Wing chun then dont play at there game as they specialise on close quarter much the same as you would not try to out box a good boxer. So all in all a good point to make. I asked him what was the range for mantis, he stated all ranges although certain practioners may favour a range more than others.

It made me think of the question though “Is praying mantis, jack of all trades, master of none”. One could look at it and think, dont play with a wing chun guy at his trapping range, a boxer at boxing range, a mantis at mmmmmm which range :wink:

So there could be good and bad points to this, let the views flow :slight_smile:

Keef

2

I think we could use another work related saying here
‘a poor workman always blames his tools’

just jokes mate.

I dont think mantis is jack of all trades master of none.

3

flow like a butterfly and sting like a bee

With all due respects, my friend, I think the problem is not that mantis is Jack of all trades, master of none. I believe the problem is in the platform of delivery. The problem is not limited to mantis only. It is wide spread in the CMA community.

As you pointed out you were doing a one-step, then semi-free step, further into “wipe the floor with you”. During this time your Sifu shifted into Wing Chun type of moves. I presume and believe this happens because you have expectations of a technique drill and not aware that it was escalating from one thing to another. Personally, I think your Sifu is quite a smart teacher in doing this because in really physical confrontation it is similar to that. You might start from a verbal confrontation and then some shoving and all of a sudden a full physical assault. You also do not have the indication of what is coming at you - style or no style - until it hits you. So changing onto some non familiar terms is a good way to exercise awareness, which is half the battle won.

Wing Chun uses Chi Sao as the delivery platform and work tirelessly at that. So that refine their techniques constantly with that specific range and possibly more. I think we need to ask ourselves whether such platform exsits in our branches of mantis. I am talking about drills that allows mantis techniques flow out liberally.

I believe you are aware now that to begin with one-step, as numerous of CMA kwoon are doing, might not be the best way to learn the flow to apply the vast mentis arsenal. One-step used to serve a purpose but now in the wake of combative sports and in a world of MMA it is serving more harm that good for CMA. I think the logical step is to refocus the training into flow drills for mantis. I think in there you will find the niche of Mantis. :slight_smile:

Warm regards

Mantis108

4

I was doing 1 step with my sifu today which eventually moved into semi-free step and at one point my sifu broke out onto me in classical Wing Chun chain punches.

:confused:

Sorry guys, can anybody please explain to me what is meant by one step and semi free step drills. As a non native english speaker unfortunately I don’ t understand.

Best Regards

5

Please note that I was not posting this in a negative way, just mearly thought it could be a good discussion about how Mantis works at many ranges etc

When I stated “One could look at it and think, dont play with a wing chun guy at his trapping range, a boxer at boxing range, a mantis at mmmmmm which range ;-)” I was potraying mantis in a positive manner, as in it is good that we train in lots of ranges.

Im sorry if it came over wrong, it is sometimes hard to get things across in writting over the internet.

Mantis108, I agree with you that what my sifu did was indeed a good thing to do by bringing me out of my comfort zone as such.

Keef

6

if you come up against some-one whom does Wing chun then dont play at there game as they specialise on close quarter

then do what?

I don’t know much about mantis but I was under the assumption that even northern mantis schools were not long range (ie CLF) or relied on kicking

What choice is there but to be close?

Please elaborate :slight_smile:

Thanks.

7

Empty Cup

Maybe I am missing the question a bit, but there is medium & long range as well as close range yes? Mantis trains all of these.
Best Wishes,
BTL

8

I touch hands with a wing chun guy every week, no problems yet, in any range.

Skard1

9

sc_guy - could you give a brief explanation of “wrapping” a punch please?
Thanks,
Meat Shake

From my experience, mantis practitioners tend to be more “middle” range fighters, switching from close to mid range.

10

Ranges…

all styles have methods by which its students should be mastering in order to fight close, middle and longe range. To say that a particular style only fight inside or outside…is a person that does not understand the martial arts or" the stye" they are studying.

I study mantis and i know that mantis is a great system and most people tend to think its primarily a medium to close range system, mantis is a complete system and the serious student should be able to fight inside, outside, close, medium and long, becuase it contains techniques that are short, medium and long.

You learn to use the appropriate technique and principle when the time and opportunity is right in a conflict. We often characterize a style like we characterize and stereotype people; blacks are like this, asians are like this and whites or latinos are like this. The FACT is maybe the particular asian, blk, white or latino that you met maybe like that, just as most of the people in Tae Kwon Do that you met may do a lot of long range kicks because that is their focus.

But what happens when you meet a TKD student who focus on the hand techniques of Tae Kwon Do and you have already have a preconceived idea in your mind when u spar or fight with him/her that this is going to be a long range competitor and you go for midrange and short techniques an find that this is where their strength lies and you underestimate your opponent.

Knowing true martial arts and understanding your system is when you realize to flow, yield, reirect and be free. This can be done with any system and you dont have to be JKD. A serious martial artist should be able to effectively use short, medium and long range techniques in their art and be able to move inside and outside equally at ease. This is when u have mastered what you are doing.

Stereotyping styles and people in various arts will lead you to a dead end and will stunt your growth even in your own style.

11

KickingMantis has made the correct his b!tch.

12

To assume and generalize is well… generally ignorant.
:wink:

Its also not safe to assume that your TKD practitioner doesnt know BJJ.
But for styles being “multi faceted”… All styles should have techniques for all ranges, but most focus on a particular range.
You arent going to see an SC guy throwing head level roundhouses, unless they studied another style. Then it isnt the SC they are using, but another style. You wont see a TKD student throw somebody. Its just not part of their curriculum. And the TKD guy you stated that throws punches, it should be expected, as TKD is a punch/kick style. What shouldnt be expected is a TKD student that will want to fight in a standing clinch, throwing knees and short quarter punches.
You wont expect a mantis practitioner to go for the shoot.
You wont expect a BJJ practitioner to stand and box it out.
Unless they have cross trained.
Its ignorant to assume anything about your opponent, lest the assumption be that your opponent is stronger, faster, and better than you.

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Nah, the only assumption I make is that they are standing in my spot.

14

Heh…
I like that.
:slight_smile:

15

Ranges

Meatshake,

You wont see a TKD student throw somebody. Its just not part of their curriculum. And the TKD guy you stated that throws punches, it should be expected, as TKD is a punch/kick style. What shouldnt be expected is a TKD student that will want to fight in a standing clinch, throwing knees and short quarter punches.
You wont expect a mantis practitioner to go for the shoot.
You wont expect a BJJ practitioner to stand and box it out.
Unless they have cross trained.

Just because TKD is a kick and punch style are u assuming they dont have techniques in their system that allow the martial artist to throw their opponent?

I understand all styles have a “focus” but if they are a complete art, they have techniques or principles to teach their students to deal with various and diverse situations. whether it be throws, locks, takedowns or other. maybe they dont have a shoot kick but they teach you how to deal with one, counter it and execute a version that they feel is better or improved.

Where did the SHOOT kick come from? You think its relatively new? Where did JKD come from? They are compliations or variations of things that exist already…How many different ways can you kick, punch, throw, takedown. Most styles are more similiar than they are different.

16

“I understand all styles have a “focus” but if they are a complete art, they have techniques or principles to teach their students to deal with various and diverse situations”

Well, in this case, until the recent boom in BJJ, and the subsequent losses of many strikers in the early UFC’s there were no complete arts. Before BJJ exploded onto the UFC, no one really trained against the shoot, its not part of many styles. Ground fighting is incorporated to VERY FEW styles. without ground fighting, is your style “incomplete”? Yes. But in this case, every style is incomplete, thus cross training and incoporation of technique is the only way to have a “full system”.

“How many different ways can you kick, punch, throw, takedown. Most styles are more similiar than they are different.”

Youd be surprised, but i get the jist of what you say here. Basics as basics, and good basics should transcend stylistic boundaries.

17

Use Mantis

I don’t think you necessarily have to do a lot of groundfighting to be complete.But if you have a way of defending or to counter against the groundfighter,then I feel that you can consider your art to be complete.The question was about wing chun.Wing chun fights at close range.In order to do that they practice at close range.That’s why they are good.If they spent their time doing groundfighting then they would’nt be that good at close range.They have ways to defeat grapplers and long range fighters.But they do it using wing chun,not switching to chang chuan or bjj.You have to look at what your art(whatever art it is) and find those answers.A lot of the forms in mantis can help you find what to use in certain situations.They offer solutions using mantis techniques and principles,not do what the other guy is doing.Kicking mantis explained this very well earlier.If your answer is “do everything to defeat everything”(especially if it’s popular at the time) then you truly are a jack of trades,master of nothing.

18

in the grand scheme of things, does it matter? If I can hold my own in a fight, I really don’t NEED to be a master. As long as I have a solid foundation and obvious understanding of what I do, mastering a single style in itself is not a necessity. That said, most MA will indeed be a master of something - not a style necessarily, but a technique. they have that one technique that they can perform from any angle, off any feed, etc.

19

Re: Ranges

Originally posted by KickingMantis
You wont see a TKD student throw somebody. Its just not part of their curriculum. And the TKD guy you stated that throws punches, it should be expected, as TKD is a punch/kick style. What shouldnt be expected is a TKD student that will want to fight in a standing clinch, throwing knees and short quarter punches.

Not true. Style is an individual thing. I’ve got a TKD acquaintance who loves to hip throw - it’s one of his favorite techniques. Last year, he won a local continuous sparring tourney, and won by using his hip throw.

[/B]

20

Meat Shake. u said…

" Well, in this case, until the recent boom in BJJ, and the subsequent losses of many strikers in the early UFC’s there were no complete arts. Before BJJ exploded onto the UFC, no one really trained against the shoot, its not part of many styles. Ground fighting is incorporated to VERY FEW styles. without ground fighting, is your style “incomplete”? Yes. But in this case, every style is incomplete, thus cross training and incoporation of technique is the only way to have a “full system”.

Meat shake the reason so many people cross train, especially in the USA is because they are inpatient, unloyal, undisciplined and in a hurry to achieve something in a another style that they dont want to wait to learn in their own.

Now, for the serious martial arts student i can understand that they may want to learn something they think their style may lack, in my opinion MEATSHAKE, this is a big misconception.

If you stick around long enough in a particular style and be willing to learn the basics and master the basics…you will understand your style and see that it has more of what u need than less.

Most people that go from school to school in order to learn the best of them all, know nothing at all and couldnt make it through a 3 min round of sparring or touch hands let alone a 30 min workout of basic calistetheics. The ones i have seem come in and say i have a black belt in this, that and the other and pop in to attain another, can barely kick or punch correctly.

If you are serious in the martial arts u will build a firm foundation in ONE STYLE. And no it is not required that you master it. but when the basics are good and you have dedicated enough time in one system, the next teacher you go to can tell that you paid you paid your dues and worked hard and will be more willing to teach you the ESSENCE . than a student moving around from SCHOOL to SCHOOL, thinking they are learning all they need to know about the style in one year, that student hasnt even touched the surface of the art.

A bag of tricks to me is this…Aikido for a year, Tae Kwon Do for a year, BJJ for a year, Wing Chun for a year and etc., U have gained one thing…learned the bare basics of of many things and thats it. You have no idea of the true essences of any of those styles. Because most instructors, traditionalist anyways, are not gonna teach a guy off the street the essence of their system in a year or two.

What you have is four-five different methods of how to attack and defend that you really dont understand any of them thoroughly.

Im sure good Tae Kwon Do has ways to defend themselves on the ground just as many other styles…the thing is very few students stay around long enough to learn it. So they leave with the idea of" oh i got my black belt but i dont really know this or that." its not the style its the person.

if you go to high school and u leave at grade 10 or 11, the reason u didnt learn chemistry II or III is becasue u didnt stay around long enough to finish the curriculum. Not because the school doesnt offer it.