Mantis in light of MMA

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
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Hey everyone,
I have tons of questions and thoughts so please enter the discussion and give me your thoughts.

  1. I just finished reading Renzo Gracie’s book: Mastering Jujitsu.
    He talks about 3 levels of a fight, Which got me thinking…
    One thing that I noticed is that the MMA sports train very realistically. They are hands on, as is many throwing arts.
    It also seems that proficiency (which can be realative) is obtained more quickly in MMA than many “traditional” MA’s.
    Why?

  2. Is mantis designed to fight primarily another striker?
    What are some of the responses in Mantis to be used against a wrestler who likes to shoot for a takedown, or even a BJJ person who will put their entire weight on you to get you to the ground.

  3. In my limited Mantis experience I would venture to say that Mantis is concerned with keeping opponents in a striking/standup type fight.

Please give me some insights: Thanks!!!

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Actually, there is an entire section in most northern mantis lines that I have seen which are specifically geared towards ground-fighting and grappling. I know of a few anti-bjj techniques that a few senior students have shown me, but it will be a longways down the road before I am likely to learn many of them myself. Also, a huge majority of our technique progressions end with the opponent on the ground and/or in a lock/break of somesort. Tanlang is mainly geared towards fighting someone who knows how to fight proficiently. It doesn’t have the feel of self-defense or sport. It’s kind of an all-in-one art. I am really fond of the many limb-breaks, eye-gouges, and temple strikes I have learned thus far. The main drawback of tanglang is the extensive amount of time and patience involved in learning it. A BJJ student could take a couple of classes and go into a fight. In tanglang, it could be 6 months to a year before you’re in a similar position. Many inviduals would not be willing to put 15+ years into a single art. Most of us are too discursively minded to stick to something for that long. So, in retrospect, you’re actually going to be pretty hard-pressed to find as many heavily-proficient tanglang practicioners when compared to the BJJ community in the western world. They’re out there though, you’ve just got to dig. :wink:

[SIZE=1]Edit: It’s funny that you brough up this question because on a similar note, we have a student at our school who is going to attend classes in both qixing tanglang and brazilian jujitsu. I would definately not suggest cross-trainging two arts at the same time to anyone as it will often impair your learning of both arts rather than help either, but I wish him the best of luck in the endeavor regardless. I definately plan on sparring him with my tanglang vs. his bjj if he sticks with it. It’s a tough art in a one-on-one situation and I won’t be able to use any of the nastier tanglang techniques… so it will definately be a challenge. Never pass up a good oportunity when it presents itself![/SIZE]

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My thoughts…

First off, I don’t represent any particular school of thoughts in the greater mantis community. I don’t speak on behalf of anyone or style but myself. So my opinion is just that - my own.

<<<1. I just finished reading Renzo Gracie’s book: Mastering Jujitsu.
He talks about 3 levels of a fight, Which got me thinking…
One thing that I noticed is that the MMA sports train very realistically. They are hands on, as is many throwing arts.
It also seems that proficiency (which can be realative) is obtained more quickly in MMA than many “traditional” MA’s.
Why?>>>

I have said it once and it will say this again. Mantis training CAN AND SHOULD be hands on; furthermore, it should be focusing on the basics just as other the MMA sports types do. That’s right, you heard me right it is the BASICS that are being neglected in the current state of teachings in many PM schools. Why? Because everyone tends to think or even sold on the idea that the “secrets” or the goods are in the advanced super duper form(s). Most people think the forms are the magic pills. Guess what? It is the blue pill not the red pill. You don’t wake up seeing the reality with the blue pill. You got the high though if that is any consolation.

Does this means the traditional training, program wise, bad? Personally, it is not bad at all. In fact, traditional training programs have a lot of wisdom to offer. It is up to the teachers to give it a bit of refreshing approach that will speak to the newer generation students. I think 7 Stars 14 roads can easily be what you need in the ring or octagon providing it is taught and trained through real workable sport competition knowledge. :wink: Same holds truth with Qishou (7 hands) which is another entry level form for mantis. Having said that many of the basic drills or San Shou in mantis are pretty effective and efficient for martial arts and/or martial sports IMHO. It is just the training protocol that is determined by the teacher’s orientation. Is it arts, is it sports or it is something beyond those? What’s really the problem? It is just that many people never grow out of the shawdow of tradition [re: their teacher’s teaching]. You will have to be an independent thinker to achieve that. It is a daunting task and a tough road to travel.

<<<2. Is mantis designed to fight primarily another striker?
What are some of the responses in Mantis to be used against a wrestler who likes to shoot for a takedown, or even a BJJ person who will put their entire weight on you to get you to the ground.>>>

No, not really. Even Bengbu has techniques for close range perhaps even ground range. Again it is the teaching or who is teaching. It is the training rather than the learning that makes the difference. I am running short on time (lunch). I will have to come back to this point later if you are still interested.

<<<3. In my limited Mantis experience I would venture to say that Mantis is concerned with keeping opponents in a striking/standup type fight.>>>

Again it is all depended on the teaching and the students attributes.

Regards

Mantis108

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  1. Why is fighting ability attained faster in MMA than in TMA?
    Primary goal of MMA training is winning fights.
    IN TMA this is not always the case.

If you want to just win fights then you have to go fight.
-train in schools that teach winning fights with rules that appeal to you.
-emphasize those aspects of your training that you feel will help you win fights.
-get partners from other schools to mix it up with.

  1. Is PM designed for fighting strikers?
    I think that is a personal aspect of how you train.
    There is enough diffrent material that you can emphasize it to suit the way want to fight.
  • I’m tall and skinny so I emphasize strikes
    -Some of my squat students who are more broad empasize more takedowns
    -I went to see a student of Wei Hsiaotang of Babu.
    He had picked out all the takedown moves and used them almost exclusively.
    Just different takedowns.
  1. PM wants to keep people up for striking…
    I disagree with this point.
    PM is too broad an art to say this.
    Though this is somewhat true for me personally.

Your Shrye, Luan Hsingfu, was one of Shr Zhengzhong’s most important masters.
He knew very few forms.
When a student came to class as a beginner all excited about training, GM Luan would show him the horse stance.
That was the WHOLE class.
Very few people ever learned more than a horse stance because every time they came to class it was just that stance.

Master Shr went to study with him.
Since Master Shr at the time was already a Shrfu himself, so GM Luan told him he had to come with a partner.

The whole point was that it was 2 man stuff.
Later one of my very old shrhsiung’s saw him do some PM.
He said it was some of the worst looking PM he had ever seen.

GM Luan had grown up in tough times in Shandong and had no understanding of the concept of making forms “look” powerful.

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Tainan,

Are you saying that “winning fights” as opposed to perfecting a technique for self-defense? Please elaborate, I still didn’t get it.
Also, mantis is adopted to one’s particular body and preference?

INteresting point about Luan Hsingfu not knowing many forms. MMA doesn’t claim to know a “1000” techniques, they seem to “perfect” a small number well.
Furthermore, the older generation of CMA teachers in America didn’t seem to have a wide curriculum of forms. In one system when i began training there was only 10 forms to “black Belt.”

All:
I agree that playing by the rules is one thing, ie: san shou, kickboxing, K-1 etc… What about the early UFC’s where it seemed that it was more style vs style?

Another thought is that MMA is really just BASICS. Basics of punching, basics of takedowns, basics of ground work.

I think that western Boxing is basic handwork because there is not grapping, and the blocking is not designed to create an opening for striking.
Comments please…

Thanks for the input.

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Originally posted by Joe Mantis
MMA doesn’t claim to know a “1000” techniques, they seem to “perfect” a small number well…

I know there will be some people on this forum who disagree, but I think one could “extract” techniques from 7*PM and have an effective arsenal of strikes.

In fact, I’ve seen UFC fights ended by the combatant throwing what appeared to be techniques in PM forms. I’ve seen someone knocked-out in a UFC fight from a kick that I’ve seen in the form Chop Chui (Spear Hand). Also, I’ve seen numerous folks go “nite-nite” after getting hit with what looked like a Tung Choi (PM Reverse Punch).

Professional fighters do alot of conditioning. They train like they’re about to have a fight. Well, they are. And when they say they have a match in 3 months, they eat, sleep, and s#!t training. When they get into that ring, it isn’t like they’re in that shape all the time. They don’t train with that intensity all the time. The same goes for boxers, swimmers, football players, and body-builders. They train with a different intensity when they have a competition event coming up.

Of course, this is my own opinion.

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mantisben,
good points!

JM,
In TMA many people train as a hobby for fun or health.
Training to really fight is usually neither.

I quit Judo because I could foresee a major injury coming my way.
I noticed that I had lost so much shoulder mobility I could no longer do double saber.
I don’t think that is good for the shoulder.
It took me several months to get it back. And a year for my knee to stop acting up.
I also saw some nasty injuries at the club.
Those guys were going very hard for tourny prep.

In Taiwan they must win their fight to move up a belt rank and they have very few chances to participate in those type of large tourny’s so the pressure was on.

They had this odd white belt culture.
In the club, if he hadn’t gotten a black belt they would rather wear white than the color they had already earned.
Something like…if it ain’t black it ain’t worth wearing.

In TMA you can train at a nice pace for most your entire life.
But to be good you must have spent a certain period of time doing hard training.
That will give some important revelations that don’t come at the comfy level of training.

I visited master Luan when he was in his late 80’s.
He could get up and do chin na with shrfu.

Another one of my shrye’s did some sparring with me when he was 92.
Of course I wasn’t going to try and knock his block off, but I could barely defend his strikes which were all delivered full force.

It was so simple, just groin and face shots over and over.

Li Hongjie, when he was 70, laughed at me as I threw full power punches to his gut(it was embarrising).
It was like hitting a rubber tire.

Those guys were all happy and healthy.

TMA also has other aspects that a MMA wouldn’t consider.
-making the forms look good is important to some people.
-weapons forms also have many different aspects of training.
-Some sort of mental conditioning can easily be achieved without having to prove or test your skill against others.

About winning and self-defense; there isn’t much distinction between the two in my mind.

8

TM

  1. I definately see the other benefits of TMA and fully enjoy that aspect. I’m just peeved that there is a perception that TMA “aren’t effective”, or “out dated” and all that blah blah blah and hoopla of the new MMA craze. I know that many teacher of the older generation (you’ve met a lot more than I) have great skill. Why isn’t that being cultivated in more TMA?

But you answered my question:

But to be good you must have spent time in hard training

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The reason why “MMA” training in traditional kung fu isn’t emphasized is because rarely are the traditional arts tested in the real-life laboratory of street fighting.

For example, how many people have actually tried to land a mantis strike to the eyes in a REAL fight? Against a resisting opponent - or more than one of them? And actually CONNECTED to the point where legitimate damage was done?

Doubtless there are those of you out there that have, and I’d love to hear from you.

Without the practical experience of trying a move out against a person(s), one can’t figure out if it really works or not. The good traditional kung fu schools feature some sort of controlled practice against resisting opponents that emphasizes both reflex and damaging power.

I am not condemning the mantis style or any traditional style in general, especially since I AM a traditional style kung fu fighter and sifu who teaches the combat arts for reality scenarios.

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The reason why “MMA” training in traditional kung fu isn’t emphasized is because rarely are the traditional arts tested in the real-life laboratory of street fighting.

How would you KNOW if traditional arts are rarely tested in street fighting? How would you know if there was a street fight in Hong-Kong between 2 excellent traditional martial artists in a bar, club, or alley? Or in Tulsa, Oklahoma for that matter?

[b]For example, how many people have actually tried to land a mantis strike to the eyes in a REAL fight? Against a resisting opponent - or more than one of them? And actually CONNECTED to the point where legitimate damage was done?

Doubtless there are those of you out there that have, and I’d love to hear from you…[/B]

I’ve never tried to gouge someones eye (yet). However, I remember the first kung-fu-related punch I ever threw. It was a right lunge-punch (from 7*PM Bung Bo, first road). It landed right under the guy’s left-eye. His head snapped back, and his eyes rolled up into his head. After landing this punch in real combat, no one could tell me that the lunge-punch is not effective. This was AFTER he hit me with the most effective hook-punch I had been hit with since that fight. After that, it was just a regular slug-fest. This wasn’t my first street fight though.

Since that fight and getting hit by that hook-punch, my training changed, and so did how I applied what technique. I’ve been hit many times since that fight, and have served my share of knuckle sandwiches. I don’t think any of them were professional fighters, but they weren’t push-overs either.

Praying Mantis has worked for me, in the street. I’ve never competed in a tournament, so I don’t know how it would work in that environment. Still, as I get older, I’m not as in a rush to throw hands as I used to be. I still like to spar, though. But not too rough…:slight_smile:

Respectfully,

MantisBen

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Eye poking

You know, I hear the “poke in the eye” thing so much it makes me sick. If you can’t figure out at least 5-10 other hit combo’s from the mantis you have learned, just give them your wallet or run away…& start training a little smarter for next time!!

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Good post, mantisben.

The reason I stated what I did about ineffectiveness is because a lot of those traditional arts (not Mantis specifically) don’t train for realistic scenarios.

You are probably the FIRST person who I’ve heard of using Mantis effectively in a street situation. To that, I applaud you. But like BeiTangLang said, that eye gouge thing has been so overemphasized that it’s beyond ridiculous. That’s the way I was taught, and that’s the way I’ve seen others teaching it.

As far as effectiveness goes, I’ve met people who’ve fought effectively using traditional Chinese kung fu and people who’ve got stomped using kung fu. It’s all in the training, and that’s on an individual sifu level.

By the way, my students and I are not punchers. That is not to say that your punch was ineffective (was VERY effective) - it’s just to say that we have a different approach to combat than you do. Our real fights have almost never been slugfests.

Oh yeah. We don’t train combos either because people in real life BLOCK.

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HuangKaiVun

Oh yeah. We don’t train combos either because people in real life BLOCK.

You might want to take another look at combos with an eye towards breaking through your opponents defenses or forcing him into a position where you have the advantage. That’s how I view combos. A Gwa Choy isn’t just a backfist to the face. It can also be used to break down the defense or force opponent to block high leaving legs and midsection open for the following moves in the combo.

I’ve been in a few real fights and single attacks just don’t cut it unless you have a fast knockout punch (I don’t). Personally I’ve had the most success with tearing into them with multiple attacks. Sharpshooting works with untrained opponents but, like you said, if they can block you need a barrage to get something through. That’s where combos come in.

BTW, I’m very much a stand up fighter and I like elbows a lot more since using them for real (moves from 18 Elbows for you WL folks). I’m getting too old to try to out muscle the other guy so I prefer not to slug it out. I’m more into “jacking the joints” these days.

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That’s cool, Hua Lin Laoshi.

You are doing the PROPER usage of Mantis, I see. Very good - we do stuff like that too but don’t have prearranged combinations.

It would be neat to see what you would do against a grappler like myself who knows some of the post-entry moves that you might pull.

That would be interesting.

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Re: Mantis in light of MMA

Originally posted by Joe Mantis
3. In my limited Mantis experience I would venture to say that Mantis is concerned with keeping opponents in a striking/standup type fight.

Take a look through your various mantis forms. You will see that mantis likes to close in fast with strikes and finish off with a takedown where the opponent hits the ground hard. Take a look at throws such as dip jang, yiu jom, dun pak, or pok tui and the setups leading into them.

In addition, you maintain control of at least one of your opponent’s limbs during the takedown. If necessary, you can transition to a lock or break on that limb. Or you could go for “ground and pound”.

I have limited experience with BJJ. I can say that in mantis, I have not trained groundwork relating to transitions beween the various mounts, guards, chokes, and submissions.

N.

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So, for those who’s schools actually train in the groundwork of PM, does it teach, guards, submissions, chokes, and groundwork?

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Re: Re: Mantis in light of MMA

Originally posted by -N-
[B]…groundwork relating to transitions beween the various mounts, guards, chokes, and submissions.

N. [/B]

This is where the grapplers become very dangerous to an opponent that isn’t familiar with these techniques! Maybe the PM system has a few of these techniques, but I don’t know of any PM system or style that has the width and depth of the “various mounts, guards, chokes, and submissions” (as you soo descriptively put it) of a grappling-based fighting style.

In watching UFC matches, the strikers will try to hit the grappler when he is trying to shoot in, and avoid grappling with shifty footwork. Still, from what I’ve observed in UFC fighting, the more dangerous fighters are strikers that know how to grapple (Chuck Liddell, Robbie Lawler, BJ Penn), and do alot of conditioning (bag-work, strength training, etc.).

In my opinion, knowing how to grapple is an indispensible “power-tool” in every fighter’s arsenal. There are still excellent fighters who don’t see the need for grappling skills (Oscar De La Hoya, Roy Jones, Jr., etc.).

Generally speaking, - I want to empasize the word GENERAL - striking is faster than grappling.

Think of the best, fastest, most successful, most dangerous, most conditioned grapppler you can think of, and I’m certain he could throw an effective left or right-cross FASTER than he could apply his quickest lock, takedown, or submission.

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Mantisbe

Generally speaking, - I want to empasize the word GENERAL - striking is faster than grappling.

I am shocked I am actually reading this on this board, but heck it is so true. Grappling is effective as long as the striker is ineffective. Teh way that I see it is that any art that says “I will take a punch in order to have my way with you” is wrong! For the simple reason : Underestimation. Once anyone underestimates one opponent they have already lost. One punch/kick whatever can end a fight.
I am not saying to disregard grappling, it is effective, but I beleive only so much of it. Why get in close when you can strike and ko? why hug, when you can kick? why prolong when you can shorten?

Thats my two cents!

Oh yeah Bj Pen is not primarilly a striker though…he trains primarily in BJJ, (thats what his bio before a fight says) Lawler has a heck of a lot of ko power but is really wild dont you think?

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Re: Re: Re: Mantis in light of MMA

Originally posted by mantisben

This is where the grapplers become very dangerous to an opponent that isn’t familiar with these techniques!

Well, I wouldn’t want to get tangled up in his ground game. I’d have to rely on taking him down hard, and hopefully breaking an elbow or knee while doing so. Preferably one of his :wink:

N.

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I have several students that literally can take punch after punch and kick after kick, particularly those who have trained some sort of Iron Body.

Couple that with their knowledge of what a Mantis fighter can do and they’ll move quick in for the submission or kill.

Like it or not, a hardened fighter in any style will probably stop 99% of your strikes no matter how strong or quick or skilled you are. This is especially true with good kung fu fighters who know exactly what kind of strikes a Mantis fighter can pull.

Try striking (without a weapon) a 5’11" 300 lb weightlifted Native American fighter who has trained in Pankration, Muay Thai, Pankration, and traditional kung fu (the grappling sort that I teach him).

He’ll LAUGH at you, then he’ll crush you.