Mantis in light of MMA

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
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Why get in close when you can strike and ko? why hug, when you can kick? why prolong when you can shorten?

Mantis does have a variety of ranges and methods to choose from. Some people may prefer to focus on medium and long range striking. I personally don’t want to rely on a one strike knockout.

One of many nice things about mantis footwork is its explosive agility in closing the gap. The fast footwork combined with mantis hands can overwhelm or overrun the opponent. You can often pass through striking range and end up in body to body contact range. You can hit with elbows on the way in. Once you are in contact, you can rely on short force of shoulder and hip strikes. At that close range, the position, momentum, and rotation of your center of mass relative to that of your opponent’s becomes important for throwing. So it’s useful to be comfortable at the close ranges so you can have followups to the initial engagement. If I have the advantage, my preference is to keep attacking until I know it’s safe to stop.

When attacking and setting up to throw, the deeper in or closer you are to your opponent, the more devastating will be the throw. As you close in, the throws become more difficult to escape. In the example of 7 star stance or mountain climbing stance, the leg/fulcrum becomes closer to the opponent’s center of mass, so your overturning force has greater effect.

When we attack, it is not just with our hands. We attack with our footwork, our stance, our center, and our spirit all in combination. The feeling is pure intensity of closing in tight with every part of our spirit and motion without reserve - no holding back for sake of staying at punching range.

In the case you end up on the receiving end of such an attack, you will need to be able to work at this close range as well. You don’t want to become overwhelmed, tangled up, and falling backwards over yourself. It is useful to be able to maintain your changeablity at the closer ranges. If you can stay close while pivoting and slipping an attack, you can for example, use a shoulder strike to break the opponent’s elbow. If the opponent steps in close and you have leg to leg contact, you can use that to bounce and break his foundation and take him down.

N.

22

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
[B]I have several students that literally can take punch after punch and kick after kick, particularly those who have trained some sort of Iron Body…

Like it or not, a hardened fighter in any style will probably stop 99% of your strikes no matter how strong or quick or skilled you are…
Try striking (without a weapon) a 5’11" 300 lb weightlifted Native American fighter who has trained in Pankration, Muay Thai, Pankration, and traditional kung fu (the grappling sort that I teach him).

He’ll LAUGH at you, then he’ll crush you. [/B]

You’re right! I’d get crushed! But if I hit as hard as Tito Ortiz, Chuck Liddell, or Roy Jones, Jr., he’d be swallowing his teeth.

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Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
He’ll LAUGH at you, then he’ll crush you.

Agreed.

N.

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Re: Mantisbe

Originally posted by grifter721

Oh yeah Bj Pen is not primarilly a striker though…he trains primarily in BJJ, (thats what his bio before a fight says) Lawler has a heck of a lot of ko power but is really wild dont you think?

I’ve only seen BJ Penn fight twice. Once against Caol Uno, and he won this fight in 11 seconds by hooking the back of Uno’s neck with his left hand, and driving 4 or 5 straight vertical fists into his face before the referee stopped the fight. It was brutal. The other fight - I can’t recall the fighters name - went the distance and he won, but he appeared to be going for the knockout, and not the submission. The other fighter was trying to grapple, but everytime he got in close, he got struck.

Again, I’ve only seen BJ fight twice. So you may be right.

As for Mr. Lawler, I’ve only seen him fight once. I don’t remember his opponent, but I think it was Lawler’s 2nd UFC fight. Although some of the swings looked wild, he was landing right on the button. Effectively. The opponent hit the ground, Robbie jumped on him and drilled 2 (only 2) punches into the guy’s face, and I thought he was going to kill him. Wild or not, when he lands, its with lethal force.

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back to tanglang

I fear this thread is slowly degenerating into an MMA sports dialogue and leaving the bounds of tanglang… let me see if I can’t pull it back on track a bit… I think Tainan made some very good points in response to the questions that were posed by Joe Mantis. Especially in the fact that tanglang is a very broad art. Not only does it contain unarmed combat involving strikes, throws, grappling, breaks, trapping, locks, disarms, etc… but you are also picking up the knowledge of how to utilize a rather large selection of weapon types (many of which can be adapted to objects within your reach as you read this). If a weapon is available that is more effective than you’re empty-hand then you should be using it. If your opponent is armed and you are not, then you must find away to use the opponent’s weapon against them or nullify the weapon altogether. Aside from the broad spectrum of situations you can tailor the art to, the subversive and often downright sneaky melee tactics and movement learned are some of the strongest (and one of my favorite) lessons that tanglang has to offer. One should be ever mindful that tanglang wasn’t made for sport. Tanglang was supposedly created for a revolt against a corrupt government… created for war. Real-life, bloody combat against other warriors who knew how to fight and how to kill. The art still survives today. That’s heavy stuff.

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Mr Binx,
Thanks for getting us on topic.
I think Huang Kaivun made an interesting point that we can tie Joe’s topic in with.

For his 300 pound student to fight me would be like me fighting maybe a kid or adolescent who is talented at fighting, but weighs 100 pounds.

Point is, although it is tough to beat a talented fighter when he just has a small weight strength advantage.
An advantage of over 100 pounds could be mighty deadly.

But, PM as all TMA have great equilizers for these kinds of problems.
That is in the form of weapons.

True story about Li Kunshan’s students.

The military came to Taiwan from China in 1949.
This includes my Shrye, Li Hongjie, and his shrfu Li Kunshan.

JM, Li Hongjie is the old master you met in Tainan/Taichong.

Some of the soldiers came to Taiwan in the early 50’s. From Korea if I am not mistaken.

On of Li Kunshan’s students who had come to Taiwan in the early 50’s and had studied with him back on the mainland didn’t seem to like Li Hongjie very much and so challenged him to a fight.

Li Hongjie, had a talk with his shrfu to get some prefight pointers.

Li Kunshan told my shrye Li Hongjie that he could not win the fight in empty hand combat.

So Li Hongjie used a short stick and won the fight.
I am sorry to say I don’t know if his challenger had a stick. It wouldn’t be unusual if he didn’t though.
At the time, my greatest concern was to know what technique won the fight.

A variation of this technique applied as a drill was posted on my mpeg thread called Tiger Tail Whip.

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Try striking (without a weapon) a 5’11" 300 lb weightlifted Native American fighter who has trained in Pankration, Muay Thai, Pankration, and traditional kung fu (the grappling sort that I teach him).

No thanks, I like my life. I would only do that with a baseball bat, and even then I would think twice. Maybe if he allowed me one hit, I could try a throat shot or an eye shot, and then run like hell. A groin shot would just **** him off more.

He’ll LAUGH at you, then he’ll crush you.

I think he would do that with pretty much anyone. Including a hardened fighter.

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Keeping things in perspective

Discussions like this always seem to go to extremes and I’d like to add my view of reality and training.

I don’t train to be the best in the world. I don’t expect to be fighting a Tito Ortiz or a Mike Tyson in my lifetime. I train to be the best that I can be and to deal with real life street situations. What are your chances of getting mugged by a 300 pound rock hard iron body trained fighter?

How many highly trained Sifus or Masters hit the skids and resort to criminal activities like robbery, carjacking or home invasions? I don’t have a problem admitting I can be beat by a younger, stronger, larger, or more skilled opponent who trains much more than I do. That doesn’t mean I won’t give him as much fight as I can dish out.

So basically what we see is what’s been said many times before. It’s the fighter, not the style. How about a 300 pound iron body Mantis practitioner against an average size MMA fighter? Granted Noguero did beat Bob Sapp but Sapp didn’t have the training to finish the fight before getting winded.

So PM is effective against all styles but not neccesarily against all opponents. The best fighters figure out a way to beat their opponent by adapting, using their brains and being flexible in their fight strategy.

I’ll continue to increase my skill and knowledge but for my own satisfaction, not because I feel the need to outdo the rest of the world.

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Re: Keeping things in perspective

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
I’ll continue to increase my skill and knowledge but for my own satisfaction, not because I feel the need to outdo the rest of the world.

Sounds like the essence of good kung fu in the broadest sense.

N.

30

Re: Keeping things in perspective

I don’t have a problem admitting I can be beat by a younger, stronger, larger, or more skilled opponent who trains much more than I do…

Me neither. In fact, I don’t have a problem admitting I can be beaten by an older, weaker, smaller, and/or less skilled opponent who trains much less than I do… I’ll tell anyone almost anything if I think it will prevent us coming to fist-cuffs…

If someone tells me they could beat me silly, and I thought by agreeing with them they wouldn’t hit me, I’d say “You sure could.”. Even if I didn’t believe it to be true. Actually, I’ve done this on a couple of occasions. The only time I’ll fight to defend myself is if there is nothing I could say or do to get out of the fight, and they won’t let me walk away.

So PM is effective against all styles but not neccesarily against all opponents.

I believe some PM techniques can be effective against ALL opponents. It is the PM PRACTICIONER that may not be effective against all opponents. For example, I throw a Tung Choi (Reverse Punch) and land right on the chin of Mike Tyson. He laughs, and then eats me. It wasn’t because Tung Choi isn’t an effective technique, it was because I wasn’t effective. Along comes the 300 lb. Native American and hits Mike Tyson square on the chin (same place I hit him). Mr. Tyson will probably be taking a long nap after his meal. Same technique - Tung Choi - but different level of effectiveness ONLY because the practicioner (300 lb. Native American) had the attribute required (power) to make the technique successful.

Lethal and destructive power isn’t limited to size and weight. Bruce Lee - 5’7" at 140 lbs. - had the 1-inch punch. If he hit Mike on the chin with a Tung Choi, he might get the same results as the 300 lb. Native American because he had the ATTRIBUTE (power) required to make the technique successful.

PM has many training methods of developing that 1-inch type of power, and I don’t know any of them.

My apologies for to ALL on this thread for posting stuff that might’ve been off topic. And I’ll try not to go to extremes either. My apologies to all…

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
I’ll continue to increase my skill and knowledge but for my own satisfaction, not because I feel the need to outdo the rest of the world.

What a great sentence!!! Poetic!!! Eloquent!!! I’m Feelin’ it!!! You got Kung-Fu in ya knuckles AND in ya Spirit Hua Lin Laoshi!!!:smiley:

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That’s the spirit.:cool:

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Joel Sutton, an 8 Step Praying Mantis stylist fought in UFC 6 and won. But I’m not sure if he used, if any, Praying Mantis in the fight. I saw a clip of it and all I saw was him sitting on top of the guy pounding his fist into their head. I would’ve like to seen the whole fight. But Joel was in the alternate fights which they don’t really show on Pay Per View as part of the show.

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Re: Mantis in light of MMA

Originally posted by Joe Mantis

It also seems that proficiency (which can be realative) is obtained more quickly in MMA than many “traditional” MA’s.
Why?
MMA practitioners spend no time doing forms. They drill only the techniques that they will use. They practice all their techniques against an opponent or against some type of training apparatus like a heavy bag, thus gaining the timing, sense of distance, and kinesthenic awareness that is mandatory for successful excecution in real-time situations. They spar at almost every workout session for anwhere from 30 to 90 minutes.

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Thanks Knifefighter.

Maybe that’s the key…less forms and more “live action.”

It seems that masters of old practiced forms when they had no one to work out with.

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Originally posted by Joe Mantis
[B]Thanks Knifefighter.

Maybe that’s the key…less forms and more “live action.”

It seems that masters of old practiced forms when they had no one to work out with. [/B]

I believe one of the reasons forms were used was to preserve the techniques of the system. Kind of like a library of the different techniques. There are other reasons to practice forms, but I’ll leave the explanation to one of the more knowledgable people on this forum.

How about soldiers in the old days of China? I believe they practiced forms, and they must’ve had other soldiers to practice with. Many styles of Kung-Fu have passed the test of effectiveness on the battlefield of WAR and the numerous “No-Holds-Barred” tournaments that were frequent in the old days of China. Yeah, China. The “womb” that gave birth to all superior fighting arts..:smiley:

No-Holds-Barred matches DID NOT start in the 20th Century.

Kung Fu has undergone hundreds, of years of trial-and-error.

There are excellent fighters that believe practicing forms are not helpful towards combat-effectiveness. I’ll bet Pesos-to-Peanuts those fighters have never trained correctly, or consistently in forms, either.

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Originally posted by mantisben
I believe one of the reasons forms were used was to preserve the techniques of the system. Kind of like a library of the different techniques.

That’s exactly how I see it. I think in the old days, our kung fu ancestors were not necessarily literate, and so they documented their knowledge in forms. Even if they could write pages and pages describing a motion or an idea, it’s easier to just show someone and say, “Do like this.”

My teacher would teach us a form, but the main focus was on extracting the techniques and drilling them on one’s own, then drilling with a partner, then practicing them in sparring.

A secondary use of forms is to entertain others in performance. I’m not too interested in entertaining my opponents :slight_smile:

N.

37

Not mantis, but check this out for a chinese take on mixed martial arts from a traditional foundation. My teacher sent one of my sihing to learn from him when he had to relocate.

http://www.jiangschool.com/jiang.htm

This guy is the real deal.

N.

38

mantisben
“I believe some PM techniques can be effective against ALL opponents. It is the PM PRACTICIONER that may not be effective against all opponents.”
Much more accurate than my comments. I agree.

Knifefighter
“MMA practitioners spend no time doing forms. They drill only the techniques that they will use.”
You make it sound like forms have useless moves in them. Why would anyone practice forms that consisted of moves they will never use? I don’t believe useless moves could have survived for generations in the forms.

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Hello everyone, first I would like to say I really like PM it is an awesome and brutal style. My instructors father trained in it starting at a very young age in the military from another military man and he ended up creating his own style called “praying mantis freestyle” where he basically tweaked several things to make them more practical for streetfighting in his mind. Also he is the head of security at the bar I bounce at and this man is 50 yrs old, I have seen him lay out guys left and right. It is actually quite funny.

Also I would like everyone to remember UFC 1 where a man named Kieth Hackney I believe, a PM practitioner turned kenpo beat a 600 pd sumo wrestler with a palm strike to the bridge of the nose. Now that is some awesome stuff! So I guess what I’m trying to say is anything is possible and especially if you train hard enough you can achieve some amazing things. You are a product of your training…and that is for any and all styles!

Oh yes, also…regardging forms…similar to what someone already said. Forms are like your encyclopedia for your techniques…it is not and will never be a replacement for actual sparring or combat simulations…but knowing the forms and the applications then applying them in your drills and sparring is the key. I love forms for one to preserve the art and it is like a notebook in my head of techniques. But anyone who thinks they can do only forms and be a good fighter has a painful reality coming to them when they get in a fight.

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600 pd sumo wrestler with a palm strike to the bridge of the nose.

No offense, but have you SEEN the guy he knocked out? :smiley: Manny Yarborough is a 600 lbs bag of fat, vice the far more athletic real sumo wrestlers in Japan. Well, discounting Musashimaru and Akebono (who both recently retired).