[QUOTE=JPinAZ;940468]Answer my questions which I asked first, then I’ll be happy to answer yours 
[/QUOTE]
The topic of this thread is “Why is Internal training fail?” please stay in the topic or starts your own thread.
If you interested in my view on your creative questions,
please use the Search Engine of the forum on my view to those questions of yours.
This is my final answer to you. it is your choice to focus on the topic or leave or here on ignored.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;940428]
Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
This is a type of internal art
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLiHEkDRjS8
While Tensho may be an internal kata, to categorize kyokuhsin as internal is quite incorrect, at least in the core development stages.
All systems become “internal” after time.[/QUOTE]
1, Notice I refer it as Internal “ART”. Not stereo typing Kyokushin as internal.
Not to mention, there is a different between an Internal ART , Internal Style, or Internal.
2, Saying that, the basic component of the Internal ART TENSO is IBUKI breathing.
According to the Chinese Classification, IBUKI is similar to the basic of hard Qigong Internal practice.
I dont know different version of Kyokushin, the Kyokushin I practice IBUKI is always practice in every training (in the begining or at the end of the season) , before taking punches/kick testing, at the time taking punch/kick for strengthening/demo or body strengten conditioning, before after the sparing, after taking a hit in the sparing… not limited to before /after the Tenso form practice.
So, is Kyokushin also practicing Internal Art?
Robert and Joy, thank you very much for the clear answers. They helped alot. I am just a dabbler in WCK but discussions like this, when you filter out the noise, can be very helpful.
Now to follow forum protocol should I either challenge one of you to gong sau, boast of my fighting skills or simply derail the thread with who knows what?
Joy, also, thanks for the boxing references, I am old enough to remember Ali beating Liston. “He’s too ugly to be champion!”. BTW I think old Foreman could have beaten young Tyson. He was just too big and too strong and Foreman had a why with swarmers.
Keeping with the boxing analogy would either of you consider WCK to be a swarming style? I realize this is a bit of a stretch but it could be interesting.
Again thanks to both of you for the well thought out responses.
Hendrick, since this is your thread what do you think of this discussion so far?
Mike
I migrate this post here.
Quote:
uote:
This above is a 1000% misleading. and clueless.
Quote:
That’s the theory, but it doesn’t work that way. You can’t develop fast or powerful or explosive movements by practicing slowly. Modern sport science has proved that beyond a doubt. You’ve provided a perfect example of a trainng method that has been completely refuted by modern research, by sport science, and by their own results, yet people continue to train that way and continue, like you, to believe it despite the evidence. That sort of training is pure crap.
It is true what above describe doesnt work. Even the Theory is totally misleading.
HOwever, TCMA IMA is not this totally, Absolutely not as the above.
practicing slowly does help and it is a REQUIRMENT to prepare for and or testing powerful or explosive movements and fast acceleration power generation. that is CERTAIN. but limited only to those who knows the process of Fajin
Quote:
Quote:
they are training in a way that does not 100% mirror a live situation but the training does not inhibit their application
Again, the above make no sense totally at all. This type of view is 100000% not accord to IMA or Taiji and totally goes in an OPPOSITE direction of Taiji or IMA.
Quote:
Sure it does. As I explained above. Not only that, but you can see that from their own results – out of all the millions of tai ji practitioners, where is there evidence that any are competent fighters?
The idea above is NOThing to do with TaiJi or IMA but someone’s ignorance speculative Idea.
Draw conclusion on the above ideas is also blind speculation without knowing what is reality.
There are lots of Combat competent Taiji players, and I myself have a few Taiji sifus who is good including a 70 old sifu Pan who was a all Taiwan senior age Push Hand champion where I dont have advantage toward him even with attack such as the Kyokushin K1 style attack, cant penetrate him but to force tie forcefully. this is when I was 35 years old.
I wont use the ADJECTIVE fighters here because Fighters doesnt mean a thing. every one can call oneself a fighter or even a jedi fighter…
[QUOTE=m1k3;940513]
Hendrick, since this is your thread what do you think of this discussion so far?
Mike[/QUOTE]
Mike,
good discussion,
I would like to see more things got stir up. because to be real honest, most IMA concept is totally misleading this days. and the general public is losing it.
Why internal arts fail:
[QUOTE=Hendrik;940503]The topic of this thread is “Why is Internal training fail?” please stay in the topic or starts your own thread.
If you interested in my view on your creative questions,
please use the Search Engine of the forum on my view to those questions of yours.
This is my final answer to you. it is your choice to focus on the topic or leave or here on ignored.[/QUOTE]
This is so laughable. My posts WERE on subject. I asked you to clarify the subject at hand. I realy wasn’t sure where you were going with this. Your reply was to ask if I can read (haha) and also to re-type the subject line. wow, thanks.
I also asked your qualifications on the subject in reply to some of your postings, which you ignored.
In the OP you mention something about being professional. Also, some other people mutter something silly along the lines of ‘to get back on subject’, which is also funny.
Then you reply to someone else posts with the following ‘expert’ opinons:
[I]- This above is a 1000% misleading. and clueless.
So this is how you discuss in a professional way?
So, again, I ask you, since you obviously pose yourself as an expert in subject, what is your qualification to hold discussion and act as judge and jury?
It’s clear you are not here for open discussion, unless it’s with those that share your views and don’t question your replies. How sad.
My original questions still stand. You just chose to not answer them probably because you don’t like them and/or have no answers. Yet you can judge another and call them totally misguided, wrong, misleading, ignorant, etc. How very zen of you :rolleyes:
quick question for Hendrik.
For Hendrik only.
http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2804
Answer to Mike
On your first point:
Regarding real gong sao- the last two times someone suggested it- I basically said show me the money and the principle, if it is likely and you are serious!! I think I know who I am and not so insecure as to look for free fights. And little desire to please an audience. Most people in a boxing match really don’t know much about what they are watching. A couple pf years ago there were 3 matches between the same two guys in NYC -middleweight level that were billed as great fights- when in fact they were terrible- both guys had no defense , led with their faces- but both had great fan clubs one Italian and the other Irish.
On your second point:
It doesn’t take much to derail threads here- most internet discussions with mixes of anonymous posters are train wrecks sooner than later.
On one posters reference to a sports training book–I dip into that literature now and then- but good training is activity and context specific.“Wind” for a 100 yard dash, for 440, for a mile or for a marathon, for basketball, football, 3 round fight, a a 8 round fight, etc are quite different things.
And coaching is specialized.
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;940564]On one posters reference to a sports training book–I dip into that literature now and then- but good training is activity and context specific.“Wind” for a 100 yard dash, for 440, for a mile or for a marathon, for basketball, football, 3 round fight, a a 8 round fight, etc are quite different things.
And coaching is specialized.
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
Yes, Joy, effective athletic training is activity and context specific. But there are commonalities among all athletic activites and they can be adapted specifically.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;940564]
Regarding real gong sao- the last two times someone suggested it- I basically said show me the money and the principle, if it is likely and you are serious!! I think I know who I am and not so insecure as to look for free fights. And little desire to please an audience. Most people in a boxing match really don’t know much about what they are watching. A couple pf years ago there were 3 matches between the same two guys in NYC -middleweight level that were billed as great fights- when in fact they were terrible- both guys had no defense , led with their faces- but both had great fan clubs one Italian and the other Irish.
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
Joy, I’d put my money on you for those last two challenge matches!
Have you guys ever heard of internal fighter being able to use thier art in the street in a actual conflict?
Sorry to missed you post yesterday.
Hendrick, since there is a lot of confusion on this subject, what do you mean by “Internal Art”?
As Robert put it very well,
In all martial training, there is, of course, “Wai Lian” (external training) which trains the movement, bones, muscles, sinew; then there is “Nei Xiu” (Internal cultivation) which focuses on intent, balancing health, breath, channels and body areas. Most lack the necessary cultivation in the internal area or don’t care - they’d prefer to focus on the training, then strategy and tactics. But of course, classical training has all of these components.
The above cover the basic of an Internal Art. However, Internal art is more that these basic.
In my mind it fall anywhere in the range from:
Keep a cool head
Focus on the current situation, be here now.
Mind-body coordination or integration.
Being in the Zone. Anyone who has played sports will know what I mean.
Mystical stuff.
IMHO,
#5 is not included for sure. Even Zen needs to be simple and clear and direct.
#4 is fuzzy and not definate. Internal cultivation needs to have a clear and precise target otherwise it is a disaster.
and it is beyond #1, 2, 3
This is not a joke and I would appreciate it if you would try to answer for me.
Thanks in advance,
Mike.
I take it seriously to answer you too. you are welcome.
Oh yeah, somewhere you asked about lineage and how far it goes back.
My primary lineage isn’t WC, it was started in a tavern in Philadelphia Pennsylvania in the Us on November 10th, 1775.
It is a long and noble lineage of fighters.
Semper Fi!
Thanks!
Honor to know you.
[QUOTE=m1k3;940484]J
How is a strike internal vs external. [/QUOTE]
IMHO,
Thus, I have heard from those who knows.
BOth can be heavy and deadly strike but they are belong to a very different paradigm.
External strike could be analogue to hitting something with a hammer.
Inernal strike could be analogue to release the Cross Bow and shoot.
External strike is muscular force directed. (hand carry the hammer to hammer hard)
Internal strike is intention directed. (aim, release the Bow triggle)
External strike is crushing/smashing destructive damage. (hammer smashing)
Internal strike is penetrating damage.( arrow shoot in)
External strike is slow and take longer striking trajectory in acceleration. heavy delay with localized muscle inertial speed pick up dependancy… ( pick up, raise the hammer…ect)
Internal strike is fast and take shorter striking trajectory in acceleration. ( the bow is in a charge ready state)
NOte:
In 1850 the Chinese Ma has mature to the point that they are asking for a level of from starting of power generation to hitting the target within an inch (short distance)
especially for the Close range art such as the WCK.
Definitely a very different thing.
that is what I have heard.
(It is obvious that I have no internal training what so ever.
Not an easy subject even with todays GM level of sifus. It is a fading art for decades.
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;940600]Have you guys ever heard of internal fighter being able to use thier art in the street in a actual conflict?[/QUOTE]
CAn the Kyokushin using thier IBUKi training for Real?
Breathing is most important in Karate. We have Ibuki breathing in Karate. It has an outside and inside character: it is positive and negative. When others are unaware that you are breathing, then this is negative breathing, and the breathing that surprises others is positive breathing. Positive and negative breathing is called Ibuki.
Breathing in slowly is negative, bringing up the air to the chest and breathing it out with a loud sound is the positive aspect. It is very important breathing, for it calms the body during any kind of stress. We also have another kind of breathing called Nogare, and we have two kinds of it, a front and a back. When you put power into your little fingers, extend your hands and pull, them back to the chest while breathing in, and then open the mouth and breathe out slowly again with the tongue between the teeth, then we call this the front style of Nogare breathing. The ura style, back style, is to bring the hands up from the side to the arm pits while breathing in and push them out in front of you while breathing out slowly.
The facts on Kyokushin training
Oyama Masutatsu, have you ever lost a fight before? Yes, I have lost many times. Just after the war, I was bashed up by a group of blacks and was even hospitalized, but man-to-man I have never lost clearly. I have only lost trying to fight against five or six people, because I am no God or Superman.
One instance of “losing” even proved highly valuable for me. This was during my meeting with Mr. Ching in Hong Kong. I loved the personality of Mr. Ching, and I respected him very deeply. When I met him I was 33 years old and he was nearly 70.
I am now bald, but even at that time, although he was very old, he had more hair then than I do now, and he was only around 50kg in weight. Of course I had more power and speed than he had, as I was young, but he was a magnificent man, just like an old God.
My head was bowed the whole time that I was in his presence, as I couldn’t look at him directly. I had lost to him without doing anything.
He asked me to show him my techniques, and I showed him all that I knew. He said that it was wonderful and dynamic, but still with an edge on it. He said I was like a rough diamond and I needed polishing. I asked him to teach me but he answered that he didn’t really have anything to teach me, just that I had forgotten the definition of Karate and my movements had become too straight.
He said, draw a circle and have a spot on it. A straight line is plus alpha. He said that straight Karate was just gymnastics, but you only beat people when you have power, true power that comes from the point and circle.
Since that time I have been teaching all my students the same thing, and this is why Kyokushin Karate is different from other Karate styles. The life of Kyokushin Karate is Kumite(fighting). The life of Kumite, fighting, is in basics. You have to practice circle training.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;940493]
Boxing punches are normally effective against people of roughly the same weight class. And the efficient time window of a boxer is relatively short. A boxer’s stance is generally top heavy- that is not the case with good internal training.[/QUOTE]
Just when I thought you couldn’t prove yourself to be more clueless than you usually do, you come up with this b.s.
Congratulations on outdoing yourself in the clueless department and pretty much proving what I always thought. Your “boxing background” is pretty much non-existent.
!!!
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;940637]Just when I thought you couldn’t prove yourself to be more clueless than you usually do, you come up with this b.s.
Good that you sometimes have thoughts!
[QUOTE=Hendrik;940507]1, Notice I refer it as Internal “ART”. Not stereo typing Kyokushin as internal.
Not to mention, there is a different between an Internal ART , Internal Style, or Internal.
2, Saying that, the basic component of the Internal ART TENSO is IBUKI breathing.
According to the Chinese Classification, IBUKI is similar to the basic of hard Qigong Internal practice.
I dont know different version of Kyokushin, the Kyokushin I practice IBUKI is always practice in every training (in the begining or at the end of the season) , before taking punches/kick testing, at the time taking punch/kick for strengthening/demo or body strengten conditioning, before after the sparing, after taking a hit in the sparing… not limited to before /after the Tenso form practice.
So, is Kyokushin also practicing Internal Art?[/QUOTE]
Is practicing kyokushin practicing an internal art?
NO.
At least not in the beginning.
Kyokushin has always followed the “traditional” japanese/okinawan mode of development:
To use your own terms (since I don’t believe in internal or external)-
Kyokushin starts off external, goes to a blend of external/internal as one progresses and finishes as internal.
This is typical of japanese systems brought over from Okinawa and while Kyokushin has some shotokan, it is by far more “goju” than “shotokan”.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;
Boxing punches are normally effective against people of roughly the same weight class. And the efficient time window of a boxer is relatively short. A boxer’s stance is generally top heavy- that is not the case with good internal training.
Regards, joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
I think that, SOME boxers end up being “top heavy”, certainly some became quite “front foot heavy”, putting far too much weight on their front foot as they do their thing.
I don’t know of any coaches that actually teach that, sometimes fighters just end up doing stuff that works for them.
Boxing punches are taught to be the most effective fist strikes, with the least amount of effort, after all, you are punching “full force” for many rounds = 100’s even 1000’s of punches.
Even when I was a lightweight, my punches could and did KO a few HW in my time, granted I did come into boxing with karate background, nevertheless, there were a few LW that I knew that were pure/strict boxers and they had some of the most powerful punches I have seen today.