Why is Internal training fail?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

[QUOTE=sihing;940268]The best part about your post was this sentence. Most do not want to be FIGHTERS, I for one include myself in that group. I practice WC because it is enjoyable, and the training system poses great interest for me, plus I like share it with others. I don’t see too many other people here that are proclaiming to be fighters, so I don’t understand T’s obsession with people saying that is what they are?? Were here to discuss WC, it’s concepts, prinicples, training curriculum and experiences with it all. I agree with T, in the fact that WC is a training system to teach you the things that WC teaches one, and that it in and of itself is not fighting, but sometimes fighting is not the point.

James[/QUOTE]

James,

I can’t speak for Terence. He states his opinion, this is a discussion forum and he lets all of know where he stands.

WCK is a martial art - combat is inherent in it. It does not mean violence. Fighting in competition is for some, but not everyone. For others getting stronger, sharpening reflexes, exercise, health, social get together, fun, culture, losing weight is the attraction of engaging in a martial art.

T makes some good points, after all, what we do is not playing with dolls and imaginary tea parties, or patty cake. He reminds you what the goals should be. Of course, the Dana White comparison is quite hilarious…:slight_smile: MMA is great, but also a sport. They do train hard and realistically. Since I know T’s background and profession and things that have happened to him in real life, I accept his drive in making what he does effective and realistic. He was once attacked by a knife wielding maniac and had to defend himself (and he did so quite effectively). He also deals with “allegedly” innocent people who are on trial for murder or other “alleged” crimes, so his clientele is quite, ahem, tough - himself being one of St. Louis’ (Murder capital of the USA) top criminal attorneys. T’s attitude is not unlike many cops and LE I have known.

In the world there are fighters and there are lovers. WCK is what it is for the practitioner. Anyone’s criticism or comments should not deter you from what you get out of it.

Best regards,

22

[QUOTE=anerlich;940327]Lack of clear goals, focus, and means of measuring progress and accomplishment or even a definition of what progress and accomplishment might be.

Also because the field is full of charlatans, airheads, and fruitcakes.[/QUOTE]

Yup. Totally agree.

23

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;940326]

Where is the proof that WCK was an IMA, [/QUOTE]

You dont do WCK right?

Otherwise you will not asking for the proof.

BTW.

the topic is why is Internal training fail? in case you dont know how to read.

In case you dont know Internal Training in WCK, please go some where and not disturb others’ discussion.

Thanks.

24

[QUOTE=Hendrik;940379]You dont do WCK right?
Otherwise you will not asking for the proof.

BTW.
the topic is why is Internal training fail? in case you dont know how to read.

In case you dont know Internal Training in WCK, please go some where and not disturb others’ discussion.

Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Yup, I train WCK. And I know the topic, and can read (BTW, it’s "Why is internal training failing", so might want to watch the ‘don’t know how to read’ crap, or I’ll start up with the can’t you write crap :slight_smile: )

Anyway, am I to assume then that this subject has nothing to do with WCK? If not, why is it here?
If it does have something to do with WCK, and from what you wrote about “White Crane and Emei DNA in SLT” and it’s connection to IMA I’m guessing it does. So, my post stands.

But I noticed you didn’t answer any of my questions, so I am wondering if you truely intended to “discuss in a professional way” or just here to talk to us and not discuss?
I’ll wait for your reply to my last post.

25

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;940383]Yup, I train WCK. And I know the topic, and can read (BTW, it’s "Why is internal training failing", so might want to watch the ‘can I read’ crap, or I’ll start up with the can’t you write crap :slight_smile: )

[/QUOTE]

which WCK do you practice?

could you please get into sharing Why is Internal training fail?

26

[QUOTE=Hendrik;940267]This is a type of internal art

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLiHEkDRjS8[/QUOTE]

While Tensho may be an internal kata, to categorize kyokuhsin as internal is quite incorrect, at least in the core development stages.
All systems become “internal” after time.

27

i totally agree with the internal is crap but i have a problem with the fighter name. Boxers are boxers, wrestlers are wrestlers. All can choose to fight but it doesnt mean they do. They any or wrestle. Rolling on ground is not fightin, fighting is fighting. Every ma does there own version. But he you want to call yourself a fighter them you have to fight. Not train hard. There is no way to replicate it. You can get close. As a swimmer i can swim for fun or compete but not the same as swimming for your life. Maybe just words but you seen to have a problem with the term being used. I train hard. Spar with some grapplers and have had a few fights but i still would not call myself a fighter.

28

Hendrick, since there is a lot of confusion on this subject, what do you mean by “Internal Art”?

In my mind it fall anywhere in the range from:

  1. Keep a cool head

  2. Focus on the current situation, be here now.

  3. Mind-body coordination or integration.

  4. Being in the Zone. Anyone who has played sports will know what I mean.

  5. Mystical stuff.

This is not a joke and I would appreciate it if you would try to answer for me.

Thanks in advance,

Mike.

Oh yeah, somewhere you asked about lineage and how far it goes back.

My primary lineage isn’t WC, it was started in a tavern in Philadelphia Pennsylvania in the Us on November 10th, 1775.

It is a long and noble lineage of fighters.

Semper Fi!

29

[QUOTE=bennyvt;940432]i totally agree with the internal is crap but i have a problem with the fighter name. Boxers are boxers, wrestlers are wrestlers. All can choose to fight but it doesnt mean they do. They any or wrestle. Rolling on ground is not fightin, fighting is fighting.
[/QUOTE]

Fighting is anytime you face a genuinely resisting opponent who is using high levels of physical force to defeat you. That’s the underlying common demoninator in every fight. The ruleset – boxing or wrestling or whatever – isn’t what determines that. Focusing on the ruleset or absence of ruleset (it’s not a “real fight” unless fill-in-the-blank) only confuseds the issue.

Every ma does there own version. But he you want to call yourself a fighter them you have to fight. Not train hard. There is no way to replicate it. You can get close. As a swimmer i can swim for fun or compete but not the same as swimming for your life. Maybe just words but you seen to have a problem with the term being used. I train hard. Spar with some grapplers and have had a few fights but i still would not call myself a fighter.

If you regularly went to a pool and swam would you call yourself a swimmer?

It doesn’t matter if you are swimming for your life or swimming for fun, you’re still a swimmer. The potential consequences don’t change that fact.

The problem is that people focus on assaults and only think of them as “real fights.” Fighting is fighting. If you are facing a genuinely resisting opponent who is using high levels ofphysical force to defeat you, he’s fighting with you. This is important since you only develop skill at handling such a situation by practicing doing that – by practicing dealing with a genuinely resisting opponent who is using high levels of phsyical force against you. In other words, you develop fighting skill by fighting.

30

Most people that have been in a ‘real’ fight view ‘fighting’ as no rules, no ref, no pads, no cage (well, unless in jail), weapons applicable, keep hitting after person is out, no bell, no judges, anything goes, 2 or 3 on 1, etc…
Some call sport fighting ‘fighting’, but my guess is those people have never been in a real fight and faced real fear, so don’t know the difference. Now, I’m not saying sport fighting isn’t something to fear, and you can’t get hurt and it’s not real. But, there is a difference, and I think most people in the real world should know this.

31

[QUOTE=Hendrik;940385]which WCK do you practice?

could you please get into sharing Why is Internal training fail?[/QUOTE]

Answer my questions which I asked first, then I’ll be happy to answer yours :slight_smile:

Like I said, we first have to figure out what we are discussing. Are we talking IMA in WCK failing (or having failed in your opinion) or just talkign about IMA failing in general. Also, we have to determine if it really is failing, or is this just your opinion. Also, if just in general, what does it have to do with WCK and why even discuss in the first place?
Is it because it’s all you kinda know about and you can’t really discuss WCK at any length so you keep reverting back to this subject?

32

Hendrik, in case you missed my questions the first time (abridged version):

Hendrik: It really bother me when I see some so called internal stylist cannot show and explain how to do basic Fajin. or talking theory one way but cant implement their stuffs.

Me: Now, since you brought up the subject, I’m curious if you can show and explain basic fajin in application? (that’s fighting if you didn’t know).

Hendrik: So, without knowing how to do Fajin and Jie Jin it is hopeless even to mention using the IMA one practice in fighting. it is just Hopeless and Fantasy of moving arms around, hitting around, or dance around which actually do nothing and improve nothing. using those to against mma or Kyokushin? those are joke.

Me:Good, so then you can use the IMA you practice in fighting then? If so, how is that possible to know if, as you say, you do not spar or fight?

Hendrik: So, why Do I go doing those research to identify the White Crane and Emei DNA in SLT? because one needs a direction to go back to the IMA.

Me:I’m curious why you would do that as well. Where is the proof that WCK was an IMA, but the IMA is now lost in the first place? Maybe the WCK you practice is incomplete, or you can’t make it work, so now you go back to other arts and add stuff in in an attempt to fill holes? And now you have crane/emei hybrid WCK. Not saying this is the case, but sounds possible…

33

Since the topic titlre deals with the internal.

Trying to avoid the disappearance of the original topic.

A top quality Chinese and some other martial arts - to be good, will have both external and internal elements fused together.
Good teachers pass on that fusion to good students.

Sometimes the chain of transmission gets broken by teachers with incomplete knowledge or students with poor learning skills. And with external aspects of training and internal there can be and are phonies and hucksters.

Ip Man was an avid learner and IMO he had the fusion of external and internal. To those he taught carefully he was able to transmit the fusion. Other who were just public class members or non tuition paying or haphazard learners didn’t get it and developed what they got in their own way…hence
a source of great confusion.

Ip man’s hands on teaching didn’t depend on much chit chat, or discussion of metaphysics but it did mean a good fusion of TCMA and WC physical, mental and energy principles.

I agree with Hendrik in part and disagree in part. The fusion has not completely died out but the internal has become in many circles just a word or object of ridicule or a source of fraud, depending on who, what, when and why…please no Dillman, empty force etc.
If you don’t have proper stance and structure and natural breathing and self control to begin with, one can forget about the internal IMO of course and internet chit chat won’t resurrect it.

joy chaudhuri

34

Agreed Joy!

Just having the basic Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma held in proper positioning you have health, power and application.

Health because of the allowing oxygen to freely expand the lungs through diaphragmatic breathing. This type of breathing has an added benefit of massaging and circulating blood to the internal organs. When the internal organs are healthy, everything functions well. Respiration, digestion, circulation, and mental/emotional processes are all enhanced.

Power is developed through the linkage of the structure as a unit. No separate parts striking.

Application, as it allows one clarity of mind to engage in changes of linking, delinking, guiding, sticking, running, stealing, leaking, etc. and set them up.

This is not just hardstyle training or relying on reflex, but to engage realtime in the moment.

35

Hi Robert

Agree with the details of your post as well.

joy chaudhuri

36

Joy and Robert,

Now that we are back on topic could you perhaps provide some form of an explanation of what we are talking about when we are discussing internal arts.

For example:

Power is developed through the linkage of the structure as a unit. No separate parts striking.

How is a strike internal vs external. (It is obvious that I have no internal training what so ever.) For example could a boxing punch with good structure using the body as a whole, no separate parts be considered an internal strike? If not could either or both of you take a shot at explaining the difference.

Thanks,

Mike

37

A hopefully brief response

[QUOTE=m1k3;940484]Joy and Robert,

Now that we are back on topic could you perhaps provide some form of an explanation of what we are talking about when we are discussing internal arts.

For example:

How is a strike internal vs external. (It is obvious that I have no internal training what so ever.) For example could a boxing punch with good structure using the body as a whole, no separate parts be considered an internal strike? If not could either or both of you take a shot at explaining the difference.

Thanks,

Mike[/QUOTE]

Hi Mike- w ref to your sig- I have taught wc toa couple of good people who also had Semper Fi as their motto.One was in Vietnam and middle east among other places. Another was in Desert Storm.“Internal” is just nature at work. But the west has had a more zig zagging path emphasizing “phenomena’” and downplaying “noumena” specially since a major church conference (Nicean?) and edict many centuries ago.
In my time, I boxed and didn’t do badly at all in that activity or in “real” fights. But on occasion a good boxer may show a flash as in Ali’s short punch in the second(?) Liston fight- most people didn’t even see it-some didn’t believe it-Ali towering over the downed Liston was hollering at him to get up-because he didn’t want people to disbelieve what happened. But he didnt really reproduce it again.The latent primitive element just came out.Good internal work based on structure and related dynamics and natural breathing rather than “snorting” or “kia-ing”- tries to integrate that element without abandoning external work.
Boxing punches are normally effective against people of roughly the same weight class. And the efficient time window of a boxer is relatively short. A boxer’s stance is generally top heavy- that is not the case with good internal training.
Many wing chun people don’t develop a good punch because the structural linkages are missing
or broken.
There is more- but this is not a lawyer’s brief.Won’t convince evryone-but that is ok. You did ask.

Regards, joy chaudhuri

38

Hi Mike,

IMO, the terms internal and external mean a lot of different things to different people. I do not think it should be used just to talk about a punch.

A punch has proper mechanics or not. A WCK punch with good alignment is no more internal or external than a boxing right cross or left jab. The only difference is the amount of linkage and shift in body weight/balance in all punches. Hence a punch is a punch.

The terms internal and external are silly in a way; they originally meant that some Xing Yi and Ba Gua people were like brothers and could practice both arts simultaneously and be “in the family”. Later some Tai Ji people jumped on the bandwagon. Then Sun Lu Tang and the Central Kuo Shu Guan thought they could foster the 3 arts and differentiate them from Shaolin or other arts…the funniest thing is Tai Ji does not punch like Xing Yi or Ba Gua - and all 3 arts do not share the same mechanics.

I think what Hendrik is referring to is this alleged classification as these 3 arts are called today.

In all martial training, there is, of course, “Wai Lian” (external training) which trains the movement, bones, muscles, sinew; then there is “Nei Xiu” (Internal cultivation) which focuses on intent, balancing health, breath, channels and body areas. Most lack the necessary cultivation in the internal area or don’t care - they’d prefer to focus on the training, then strategy and tactics. But of course, classical training has all of these components.

Hope this helps.

39

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;940493]___________________________________________________________________
Hi Mike- w ref to your sig- I have taught wc toa couple of good people who also had Semper Fi as their motto.One was in Vietnam and middle east among other places. Another was in Desert Storm.“Internal” is just nature at work. But the west has had a more zig zagging path emphasizing “phenomena’” and downplaying “noumena” specially since a major church conference (Nicean?) and edict many centuries ago.
In my time, I boxed and didn’t do badly at all in that activity or in “real” fights. But on occasion a good boxer may show a flash as in Ali’s short punch in the second(?) Liston fight- most people didn’t even see it-some didn’t believe it-Ali towering over the downed Liston was hollering at him to get up-because he didn’t want people to disbelieve what happened. But he didnt really reproduce it again.The latent primitive element just came out.Good internal work based on structure and related dynamics and natural breathing rather than “snorting” or “kia-ing”- tries to integrate that element without abandoning external work.
Boxing punches are normally effective against people of roughly the same weight class. And the efficient time window of a boxer is relatively short. A boxer’s stance is generally top heavy- that is not the case with good internal training.
Many wing chun people don’t develop a good punch because the structural linkages are missing
or broken.
There is more- but this is not a lawyer’s brief.Won’t convince evryone-but that is ok. You did ask.

Regards, joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]

Thank you, very good answer, especially the “church conference reference”.

So, trying to take this to the next level. Rather than the top heavy shoulder whirl punch used by many boxers an internal strike would be more of sitting down in your stance and driving up from the heel through the whole body chain structure?

Poor wording but if you read Dempsey’s book or Teri Tom’s book on the straight lead you’ll get where I’m coming from.

40

Response to Mike’s post

Thank you, very good answer, especially the “church conference reference”.

So, trying to take this to the next level. Rather than the top heavy shoulder whirl punch used by many boxers an internal strike would be more of sitting down in your stance and driving up from the heel through the whole body chain structure?

Poor wording but if you read Dempsey’s book or Teri Tom’s book on the straight lead you’ll get where I’m coming from.(Mike)

Yes…however…there is a little more to it…
being more square bodied and both hands working together would be good.
Wing Chun is really a two handed system more so than boxing. One hand helps with the power of the other in wing chun…more so than in boxing.
Mike Tyson unfortunately wasted his talent away because of personal problems and he fired the one trainer, a protege of D’Amato and was close to him before the Douglas fight and kept going down hill since then… he lost his peekaboo as well and his training discipline. One of the things about the original peekaboo (Mike would have demolished Dempsey IMO) is that the triangle is there with the elbows in and the hands at the apex . When one hand moves it picks up support from the other. Tyson didn’t dance that much. But Dempsey,Ali, Tyson—also showed the relative brevity of a boxing career- even shorter in the MMA cage(only 15 fights and you can be a champion for a litttle while and then slink into oblivion.Abbot, Coleman and now Liddel) ((BTW- showing my years- I have met the late great Dempsey at his now gone Manhattan restaurant and talked with him!!))

joy chaudhuri