How Does the West Train Internal?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Sanjuro says,

The consensus seems to be that, YES, western systems do have the very same “internals” as eastern ones, that one will indeed find the same attributes and techniques and practices, the difference simply being the “jargon” that is used.
Truly, if one sees a high level athlete perform their sport one sees all that is “internal”: structure, relaxation, alignment, full body union, etc, etc.
It does truly seem to be a case of Tomato/tomahtoe.

I agree.

So…there’s lot’s of talk here about Chinese (and other ‘Eastern’) Internal training methods…

How are Internals trained in the ‘Western World’? Is it different, similar, what do you think?

Oops, probably should have put this in the internal forum…feel free to move. Thanks.

2

There’s an internal way of punching. It’s not straight. It has an arc to it. It utilizes the same shoulder motion as using a heavy hammer and/or sawing wood. Unlike push-it-out punching, you can generate power on the way out and on the way back… or course there is linking it to the shoulder/hip/foot, etc., but everybody does that.

Also internal, is the emphasis on structure. Structural support and maintaining it in motion and under pushing/pulling scenarios… I’ve trained this in MMA with head drag drills but it’s not the same, different, and less detailed.

Lastly is the stuff everyone talks about. The standing. The postures. The running the channel for 30 mins minimum.

I do this standing in San Ti, Hold the Tree posture and the opening move of Taiji… though not as much as I should. And it requires doing it for a while to evolve with it. But it contributes something.

3

[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1131679]Sanjuro says,

I agree.

So…there’s lot’s of talk here about Chinese (and other ‘Eastern’) Internal training methods…

How are Internals trained in the ‘Western World’? Is it different, similar, what do you think?

Oops, probably should have put this in the internal forum…feel free to move. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Ask a fighter pilot.

4

How does someone train internal? Internal what?

Your heart beats, your blood flows, your bowels move and air goes in and out.
Your spleen breaks down food and turns it into blood, your pancreas does a few things, but it produces insulin, your muscles will grow with resistance placed on them over time, your bones will grow through the micro fracture process.

diaphragmatic breathing is preferable to lung sucking.

Standing still is not inherently internal.
visualisation is not inherently internal.
You cannot train your organs to do anything different than what they already do. In rare cases, you’ll find a holy man who can reputedly slow his heart rate and there are natural outliers who can do this without training at all. But good lucj finding a living example who can readily demonstrate any of that.

so, I have yet to hear any valid description of internal training really.

when you train, you train the whole body. The categorization and fragmentation of intellectual ideas applied to something as simple as the flesh and bone you are born with is often ludicrous.

you can have gross training and refined specific training.

internal/external is a crock and in all my years I have never been given a valid explanation of it. I accept it as divisions of martial arts, particularly chinese and that’s about it. Internal = bagua, taiji and xingyi

Also, as an added anomaly, there is the most amount of blah blah blah and the least amount of fitness and ability to fight coming from so called internal martial arts. which only casts further dim light on that concept.

the whole idea of making the act of fighting some esoteric ritual is mind boggling really. but then…i do practice tcma so…lol :confused: :stuck_out_tongue:

5

[QUOTE=Ray Pina;1131685]There’s an internal way of punching. It’s not straight. It has an arc to it. It utilizes the same shoulder motion as using a heavy hammer and/or sawing wood. Unlike push-it-out punching, you can generate power on the way out and on the way back… or course there is linking it to the shoulder/hip/foot, etc., but everybody does that.[/quote]

Are you saying that is an “internal” way of punching?

Sounds similar to the mechanics behind how a baseball pitcher throws a ball.

The running the channel for 30 mins minimum.

What does that mean?

6

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1131690]
the whole idea of making the act of fighting some esoteric ritual is mind boggling really. but then…i do practice tcma so…lol :confused: :p[/QUOTE]

yeah…it’s not like that’s been going on since the ‘Dawn of Man’ or anything like that. :slight_smile:

Anyway, why don’t we stick to athletes, and Sanjuro’s description, “structure, relaxation, alignment…etc,” that will keep things simple (relatively).

7

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1131690]so, I have yet to hear any valid description of internal training really.[/quote]

To me, “internal” means you’re doing something different from strictly external movement.

Anyone can do external. You just move and do it.

Therefore “internal” has to have another component; that which makes it internal.

Usually this is qi.

For example, a regular palm strike vs. a palm strike with qi.

I’ve never seen any quantifiable difference. There needs to be some sort of double blind study, but I don’t think that’s possible in this case.

People who do the internal stuff say they can “feel” a difference, so maybe there is something to that.

I’ve also never seen a qigong tric… er, demo, that couldn’t be replicated with good (external) conditioning, proper leverage, and body mechanics.

internal/external is a crock and in all my years I have never been given a valid explanation of it. I accept it as divisions of martial arts, particularly chinese and that’s about it. Internal = bagua, taiji and xingyi

Agreed for the most part.

I mean, I’ve generally come to accept that “internal means there’s a qi component” or sometimes, a lack of external component. For example, “internal iron body” is conditioning the body to take strikes without actually hitting the body during training (beats me how this would be done. I’ve only heard about it. I’ve seen some demos claiming to be this, but they were all flexing their abs and other muscles in the bodies at the moment of impact which is gasp the same way anyone takes a strike).

Bagua, taiji, xingyi are “internal” because they seek to increase one’s power through qi development rather than increase one’s power through things like weight lifting, pushups, etc.

When you have developed your qi, you can hit harder, or so the story goes.

Also, as an added anomaly, there is the most amount of blah blah blah and the least amount of fitness and ability to fight coming from so called internal martial arts. which only casts further dim light on that concept.

This * 100. Absolutely agree.

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1131690]
visualisation is not inherently internal.[/QUOTE]
So visualization takes place outside your body?

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1131690]
You cannot train your organs to do anything different than what they already do. In rare cases, you’ll find a holy man who can reputedly slow his heart rate and there are natural outliers who can do this without training at all. But good lucj finding a living example who can readily demonstrate any of that.
[/QUOTE]

Dude,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofeedback

You really shouldn’t be allowed near a computer when you’re this drunk.

9

Proper structure doesn’t make something internal.

You need proper structure to deadlift and squat without hurting yourself, but powerlifting isn’t an internal art.

Now, if the lifters were lifting the weight with their qi…

10

[QUOTE=wenshu;1131698]So visualization takes place outside your body?

Dude,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofeedback

You really shouldn’t be allowed near a computer when you’re this drunk.[/QUOTE]

Visualizing a movement has been shown to fire the same neurons as actually doing the movement.

I agree visualization is a very beneficial technique. I do it when I cannot train, and also when preparing for something like a powerlifting meet. It helps maintain neurological efficiency for a movement.

It turns out the old advice of “see yourself doing it” was actually based in truth.

Is that “internal” training?

I don’t believe so, not in the way that I’ve come to understand “internal” from a CMA viewpoint.

Mental, yes.

Internal, no.

That doesn’t mean visualization takes place outside your body :stuck_out_tongue: By that logic, weight lifting is also internal because the muscles are contracting inside your body.

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[QUOTE=IronFist;1131699]Proper structure doesn’t make something internal.

You need proper structure to deadlift and squat without hurting yourself, but powerlifting isn’t an internal art.

Now, if the lifters were lifting the weight with their qi…[/QUOTE]

Aren’t they though(the best one’s anyway)? So how do they train that?

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[QUOTE=IronFist;1131696]
Bagua, taiji, xingyi are “internal” because they seek to increase one’s power through qi development rather than increase one’s power through things like weight lifting, pushups, etc.
[/QUOTE]

You’re just regurgitating the myths. Bagua, taiji, xingyi all employ strength and conditioning, anyone telling you otherwise is selling something.

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[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1131705]Aren’t they though(the best one’s anyway)? So how do they train that?[/QUOTE]

Aren’t they what? I’m not sure what you’re asking.

14

using ‘qi.’

Let’s not argue about the definition of internal vs external, or qi, it will never end…Just looking for the Western training methods that correspond to (or don’t) Eastern ‘internal’ methods whatever, you[the poster] think that means…

15

[QUOTE=wenshu;1131698]So visualization takes place outside your body?

Dude,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofeedback

You really shouldn’t be allowed near a computer when you’re this drunk.[/QUOTE]

lifting weight takes place outside the body? punching is not inherent to the structural platform delivering it?

the body is a whole. visualisation is of mind. Is that inside or outside the body? I say it is both because it is mind. Mind sees what is far, hears what is hidden and is the sensory perception device that the body uses. It sits inside your skull but is engaged fully in the exterior world. so, is it internal?

biofeedback is what it is. You can calm yourself and relax the whole body. BUt you can’t hold your breath by will alone until you are dead, it is impossible to do this as your body will autonomously start up again whether you consciously participate or not.

You need to keep your sharp tongue tethered in your head when making comments sometimes.

16

[QUOTE=IronFist;1131708]To me, “internal” means you’re doing something different from strictly external movement.[/QUOTE]

How do you train

  • "internal’ roundhouse kick or
  • “internal” hip throw?

I truly don’t know there can be any difference between a Taiji guy doing “hip throw” vs. any external guy doing it.

Please help me on this question that has bothered me for many years.

17

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1131690]
Also, as an added anomaly, there is the most amount of blah blah blah and the least amount of fitness and ability to fight coming from so called internal martial arts. [/QUOTE]

In my opinion I found internalists more willing to compare. Partly out of a doofy obligation to lineage honor, and partly out of curiosity if the other guy “had” something.

Almost always this involved friendly taking of balance, domination of limbs. A couple times moderate sparring.

This was preferable to the Wing Chun guys who thought they were going to speed punch me a thousand times because “I trained internal” and wore hippy pants. They wanted to fight… and I beat them silly crying for mercy: “Alright. Alright” Not even thinking about tapping. Pleading to be released.

As for fighting, pure internal. I think there’s the children of Master William C.C. Chen and me. Who else has gone out to fight?

18

[QUOTE=wenshu;1131706]You’re just regurgitating the myths. Bagua, taiji, xingyi all employ strength and conditioning, anyone telling you otherwise is selling something.[/QUOTE]

That’s cool. I’ve seen some strength training stuff, like bagua guys walking around wearing weight vests and stuff.

Why are those 3 arts considered internal, then? Why all the focus on qi generation? Wouldn’t the principles of the arts still work without the qi?

It seems like the general idea is the arts won’t work without qi skills. The whole “it takes 10 years to be able to fight with tai chi” thing. Seems silly to me.

If the movements are effective for fighting, people should train tai chi and powerlifting and kettlebells. Within 1 year you could crush all those pajama wearing internal development guys that had been training for 10 years. Except you know they would complain: “you’re using too much muscle for push hands! You’re messing up my sensitivity!”

There are the myths and legends of the tai chi (or other internal art) masters who, because of such qi development, could not be damaged from strikes (iron vest/body) and could cause massive damage with a single strike because of their ability to strike with qi (iron/cotton/whatever palm). They say that level of power takes decades to develop and that’s if you’re dedicated and do your qi exercises every day.

19

In my opinion, anyone’s training will benefit more by shedding the pseudo-intellectual dross and going for the methods that are cut and dried and produce the results you want.

Don’t know what you want? get out and go think about it, you can’t window shop your way to fitness and kung fu. You need a plan, you need to work towards it and you need to recognize and maintain when you achieve it.

In anything.

Good Kung Fu is pretty intense training. If you spend a lot of time discussing the merits of heel breathing vs carry the moon qigong, you are probably in a cult center.

If you spend a lot of time sweating and working, then you are in the right place.

It’s as simple as that for me. :slight_smile:

20

[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1131710]using ‘qi.’

Let’s not argue about the definition of internal vs external, or qi, it will never end…Just looking for the Western training methods that correspond to (or don’t) Eastern ‘internal’ methods whatever, you[the poster] think that means…[/QUOTE]

No, powerlifters are not using qi to assist in their lifts.