Honestly, to me (and I’m no expert, but I still think I’m right) you’re doing something internally whenever you are in ‘the zone.’ Don’t ask me to define ‘the zone.’ (And please don’t pick a bone) So…how does the ‘Western’ athlete train that? Or doesn’t he/she?
So far I’ve heard ‘visualization.’ Anyone got anything else good? 
[QUOTE=IronFist;1131717]No, powerlifters are not using qi to assist in their lifts.[/QUOTE]
well, by my understanding of qi, yes they are by merit of being alive.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1131712]How do you train
I truly don’t know there can be any difference between a Taiji guy doing “hip throw” vs. any external guy doing it.
Please help me on this question that has bothered me for many years.[/QUOTE]
You don’t.
A roundhouse kick is external.
So is a hip throw.
I guess if a taiji guy does a hip throw he’s using qi to assist in some way that a Judo guy or a sambo guy is not.
Unless the taiji guy is just running qi through his body and happens to do an external hip throw that doesn’t require any qi. And in that case, it’s not internal, either.
Waaaaaah!!! Gosh, ask a simple question…
[QUOTE=IronFist;1131720]A roundhouse kick is external. So is a hip throw.[/QUOTE]
If a Taiji guy cannot execute an “internal”
that means “internal” can only apply on “arm strike (punch)”, 1/4 of the total TCMA application. So what’s the value of “internal” then?
[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1131718]Honestly, to me (and I’m no expert, but I still think I’m right) you’re doing something internally whenever you are in ‘the zone.’ Don’t ask me to define ‘the zone.’ (And please don’t pick a bone) So…how does the ‘Western’ athlete train that? Or doesn’t he/she?
So far I’ve heard ‘visualization.’ Anyone got anything else good? :)[/QUOTE]
I believe being “in the zone” results from a certain combination/proportion of neurotransmitters in the brain (not qi). The effect can be replicated with drugs (which have a quantifiable influence on brain chemistry) for a short period of time.
It’s tough to train “being in the zone.” It usually happens spontaneously, and if you try to make it happen, it doesn’t; in fact, if you try to make it happen, you usually make your performance worse. It’s like when you get all inside your head and overthink things in the moment, you actually do worse.
In fact, at least personally, I usually don’t fully realize I was “in the zone” until it’s over. Cuz when I’m in the zone, I’m usually too busy kicking ass and winning at whatever I’m doing to stop and think about it. It’s almost like time dilation for me.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1131723]If a Taiji cannot execute an “internal” hip throw or “internal” roundhouse kick, that means “internal” may not be able to apply into our daily life such as lifing a object. That also means an “internal” guy will have to train “external” as well.
[/quote]
I agree with all of this.
You cannot lift an object with qigong. Need to move that heavy object over there? The more muscles you can flex, the more overall tension you will generate, and the better chance you have of lifting it. This is documented in medical science.
Qigong guys say muscle contraction inhibits the flow of qi, so I guess they would lift it without contracting their muscles or something. If they wanted to lift it with internal technique, I mean. I dunno.
So what’s the value of “internal”?
Proponents say you can do more damage with a strike if you use qi, or you can take harder strikes to the body if you use qi. I’ve only heard about qi infused palm strikes, however. I’ve never heard of a qi powered shin kick or backfist or anything.
I would love to see a quantifiable demonstration of a qi strike delivering more power, but so far, everything I’ve seen has been an application of physical conditioning, body mechanics, and leverage. It’s especially silly when the guy doing the “qi break” is a large guy who jumps up in the air and uses all his body weight and momentum on the way down to perform the break. Qi power!
To do a legit qi break, I would like to see something that cannot be replicated by external conditioning, body mechanics, and physics/leverage.
Even so, some of the demos I’ve seen are impressive. For example, being able to break 5 bricks requires a good deal of training. It requires physical conditioning, mental confidence, and a decent amount of strength. I don’t understand why people can’t just be proud of their abilities, and instead have to say they are breaking with qi power, especially when they are jumping up in the air first and coming down with all their bodyweight and momentum behind it.
There are a lot of people out there who want to believe they have mystic power, or who want others to believe they have mystic power. And there are a lot of people who will believe them! Just look at all the kong jing believers. Yet James Randi still has his $1,000,000…
even in external henan shaolin kung fu there is visualzation of qi.
how does westerner train internal?
in the presence of fighters, deny qi and talk about how they trained knife fighting and wrestling.
when the fighter leaves the room, do forms and push hands.
[QUOTE=IronFist;1131728]
Qigong guys say muscle contraction inhibits the flow of qi, so I guess they would lift it without contracting their muscles or something. [/QUOTE]
in traditional fantasy kung fu novels, the heroes are six foot tall and have huge muskles, for example water margin.
in modern times the heroes are skinny and look like woman from far away, some times if you bang bang bang in anoos it even feel like a woman.
i miss the old days when kung fu heroes massacred entire towns and comiited cannibalism.
I’ve always wondered how close Chinese qi is with Japanese ki ().
I believe they’re the same character, but I imagine that the usage is a bit different.
In Japanese, is a bit esoteric, but not so abstract as to require that much discussion (at least for people who speak the language).
The term/kanji/rootword implies atmosphere, mood, air, nature/disposition, intention/motivation, appearance of/feeling of, spirit, mind, or heart.
You say (ki wo ireru) to mean “put some effort into it” - or “apply a little elbow grease”.
(yaruki); is like your motivation to do something.
It’s basically the meeting point of mood, attitude, focus, intention, spirit, disposition, and atmosphere.
Outside of kiai masters, you don’t really hear it being used to describe invisible lightning bolts or magic death rays.
I’ve always thought of “internal” as just good body mechanics, maybe coupled with coordinating your movements with your breath.
I’m amused when “internal” masters make fun of western styles like boxing, calling it “external” and lacking skill, and then proceed to mimic boxers with mechanics that would get them laughed out of most gyms.
Sure, maybe I’ve only got 4 basic punches in my “sport”, or 8 “limbs” used in about 20 different ways; but i can break down the mechanics of what every applicable joint is doing at every microsecond during each of those movements.
[QUOTE=Pork Chop;1131736]I’ve always wondered how close Chinese qi is with Japanese ki ().
I believe they’re the same character, but I imagine that the usage is a bit different.
In Japanese, is a bit esoteric, but not so abstract as to require that much discussion (at least for people who speak the language).
The term/kanji/rootword implies atmosphere, mood, air, nature/disposition, intention/motivation, appearance of/feeling of, spirit, mind, or heart.
You say (ki wo ireru) to mean “put some effort into it” - or “apply a little elbow grease”.
(yaruki); is like your motivation to do something.
It’s basically the meeting point of mood, attitude, focus, intention, spirit, disposition, and atmosphere.
Outside of kiai masters, you don’t really hear it being used to describe invisible lightning bolts or magic death rays.
I’ve always thought of “internal” as just good body mechanics, maybe coupled with coordinating your movements with your breath.
I’m amused when “internal” masters make fun of western styles like boxing, calling it “external” and lacking skill, and then proceed to mimic boxers with mechanics that would get them laughed out of most gyms.
Sure, maybe I’ve only got 4 basic punches in my “sport”, or 8 “limbs” used in about 20 different ways; but i can break down the mechanics of what every applicable joint is doing at every microsecond during each of those movements.[/QUOTE]
This is more or less my ‘Chinese’ understanding of ‘qi.’ I don’t know why everyone has to make it so complicated (well, I kind of do, but I’d rather not think about it).
people blame communist china for mind control and brain washing, but internal is a good example of brain washing from ancient feudal era.
the west train internal by telling your student to completely relax, then tense up your self and surprise him with a qinna move that completely destroys his joints.
i hate to break it to you guys, but even external songshan shaolin kung fu use visualization of qi.
even in beginner horse stance punching, shaolin kung fu uses visualization of qi.
[QUOTE=Pork Chop;1131736]I’ve always wondered how close Chinese qi is with Japanese ki ().
I believe they’re the same character, but I imagine that the usage is a bit different.
In Japanese, is a bit esoteric, but not so abstract as to require that much discussion (at least for people who speak the language).
The term/kanji/rootword implies atmosphere, mood, air, nature/disposition, intention/motivation, appearance of/feeling of, spirit, mind, or heart.
You say (ki wo ireru) to mean “put some effort into it” - or “apply a little elbow grease”.
(yaruki); is like your motivation to do something.
It’s basically the meeting point of mood, attitude, focus, intention, spirit, disposition, and atmosphere.
Outside of kiai masters, you don’t really hear it being used to describe invisible lightning bolts or magic death rays.
I’ve always thought of “internal” as just good body mechanics, maybe coupled with coordinating your movements with your breath.
I’m amused when “internal” masters make fun of western styles like boxing, calling it “external” and lacking skill, and then proceed to mimic boxers with mechanics that would get them laughed out of most gyms.
Sure, maybe I’ve only got 4 basic punches in my “sport”, or 8 “limbs” used in about 20 different ways; but i can break down the mechanics of what every applicable joint is doing at every microsecond during each of those movements.[/QUOTE]
In the Chinese approach, it’s not that different. It is energy, and it is considered inseparable from pattern. Thus, there is a physical pattern to any expression of energy. It is not separate from it in such a definition. To believe that muscles play zero role is contrary to the definition of qi.
In most of the internals, like many styles, an premium is placed on micromanagement of forces. Ability to do this, in practice, is almost always interpreted by most good internal martial artists I’ve met, as good chi. This is body mechanics, but also it is entrainment in response to outside body mechanics.
Mixing responses here, but I’ve seen one internal set that does a round kick. The key difference between it and some round kicks I’ve seen is that the practitioner starts middle or back weighted, sinks and digs in(while arching slightly their lower back as they drop) and rise slightly and tuck as their torso shifts forward and they do the kick. The idea is to let gravity pull you down as you sink, and try to redirect that into the kick, while involving a spinal whip.
The problem with defining internal as good body mechanics is that “good body mechanics” is a more meaningless term than “chi”. What is deemed good body mechanics changes constantly, and is only useful in the narrowest of uses. It’s as psuedoscientific a term as ergonomics, or how to make people able to do something that isn’t good for them repetitively more times before they aren’t happy at work.
I’d also say there is not an internal hip throw in internal kung fu that I’ve seen, but I would also say there’s room for one.
There is one subset of hip motion in the better internals I’ve seen that I haven’t seen as comprehensively applied in other styles, but perhaps I’m just not aware of it in those styles. The round kick I describe has it.
[QUOTE=bawang;1131745]i hate to break it to you guys, but even external songshan shaolin kung fu use visualization of qi.
even in beginner horse stance punching, shaolin kung fu uses visualization of qi.[/QUOTE]
External guys like to pretend otherwise, while pretending that external kung fu schools fight any more than internal ones.
even worse are the internal guys that dont believe in qi, and just do push hands all the time. what is the point?
[QUOTE=bawang;1131751]even worse are the internal guys that dont believe in qi, and just do push hands all the time.[/QUOTE]
The internal guys who do push hands all the time are a rarity. Most do the form all the time.
IME, people playing push hands get about ten minutes of focused push hands for an hour of time spent repeating and talking about one move that worked once.
Which, interestingly enough, also describes a lot of sparring training.
Shut up and play your guitar is an important expression to know. You need to know what you’re doing, but you also need to practice it. If all your training time is spent examining conceptual models and techniques, and almost none is spent in a manner where you are CONSTANTLY (read: without stopping to discuss) trying to pull it out of thin air, the knowledge is inaccessible.
why you tell me to play guitar? i dont want play guitar. you shat up.
you have it upside down man. people who do only tai chi forms dont pretend they can fight. people who push hands all the time do. they think its sparring.