Fellas, I’m in the process of moving, so forgive me if I suddenly don’t answer your posts. I’ll be back to this shortly.
At the BJJ academy I train at we have a few college level wrestlers, I have been training there for almost 4 years, and I cant stop there shoots. Pretty much no one can. Against the rest of the guys I do fine, I can stuff my fair share. Its jsut they are at of differnt lvl, they simple out class me. So usally against them I make sure end up in a good place, ei guard, half guard ect. Cause I know I am going down
for a wrestler, not being able to get a shot off and take a guy down is akin to a boxer not hitting past/through/around guard. it happens, but only if someone matches or beats your skill/attributes.
[QUOTE=Drake;1143132]Pretty **** hard, actually. If they are decent, and they want you on the ground, you are going to the ground. Like SR says, you are arguing against decades of hard evidence and solid proof.
It’s like you don’t want to accept this, and are willing to say anything if it means diluting it.
****, man, nobody is saying abandon TCMA. But without a ground game, you are asking for a terrible outcome. Instead you are saying things which have been proven to be inaccurate, and you are rehashing a discussion that has been put to bed already.[/QUOTE]
We had discussed the “double hands single leg” and it’s counters many times in this forum before. Let’s not go back there again.
As far as “defense is always easier than offense”, here is a simple example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31h5gbazwU
Is it easier for you to attack that bear, or is it easier for you to wait for that bear to attack you? When you attack, you can only use your own force. You have nothing to work with. When your opponent is gone, you will meet the emptiness. When your oponent attacks you, you can borrow his force, and you have somthing to work with. Your force plus your opponent’s force is always greater than your own force.
[QUOTE=Lucas;1143149]for a wrestler, not being able to get a shot off and take a guy down is akin to a boxer not hitting past/through/around guard. it happens, but only if someone matches or beats your skill/attributes.[/QUOTE]
The Mongolian wrestling only has one round with no time limitation. Sometime a match can last for over an hour and nobody can take the other down.
those must be some really well evened out wrestlers!!
[QUOTE=Lucas;1143155]those must be some really well evened out wrestlers!![/QUOTE]
It’s more proper to compare 2 persons with the same skill level. You have 2 arms and 2 legs. Your opponent also has 2 arms and 2 legs. Trying to assume that you can take your opponent down whenever that you want to (or the other way around) is not realistic IMO.
A friend of mine had made public statement that if anybody could take him down even once (when he plays 100% defense), he would give that person a black belt. He had just had his 70 years old birthday not too long ago. So far nobody had ever received a black belt from him through that short cut yet.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1143157]It’s more proper to compare 2 persons with the same skill level. You have 2 arms and 2 legs. Your opponent also has 2 arms and 2 legs. Trying to assume that you can take your opponent down whenever that you want to (or the other way around) is not realistic IMO.
A friend of mine had made public statement that if anybody could take him down even once (when he plays 100% defense), he would give that person a black belt. He had just had his 70 years old birthday not too long ago. So far nobody had ever received a black belt from him through that short cut yet.[/QUOTE]
Ok that takes care of one answer. break’s over…
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1143113]Well, if you wanna look at in a “scientific way”:
The vast majority of evidence we have from over the last 20 years clearly demonstrates that IF a trained grappler wants to take someone down, they are going down.
That has been empirically proven over and over.
Then there is gravity and the often proven fact that it is far easier to go down than to stay up.[/QUOTE] Were these “fights to the death”? 
In Shuai Jiao we learn chi na - joint locking - it’s the same standing or on the ground
[QUOTE=Lebaufist;1143100]So what about all the people who aren’t BB? They just get taken down. No sorry this is a fallacy. Superman doesn’t exists and no style will make you one. Its not rocket science.[/QUOTE]
name me one UFC guy at the mid level who is not either a collegiate level wrestler or a BJJ purple belt, no one said they had to be black belts, but without a decent level of ground work (purple at least) you are going to get hammered.
Can purples beat blackbelts in MMA? yes because striking changes the game, but without a game in the first place you are in trouble…i thought we learned this from …oh i dont know…the last 20 years of the UFC?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1143117]It’s much easier to train defense than offense. When your opponent shots at your leg, all you need is to drag his head all the way to the ground. ?[/QUOTE]
if only it was that easy…i agree with you for the most part defence is easier than offense, hence in MMA a purple belt level gy can defend a b lackbelts attacks, because all he is doing is using posture and escapes not looking to attack, but you still need a solid game to be able to do this
[QUOTE=SwaiingDragon;1143197]In Shuai Jiao we learn chi na - joint locking - it’s the same standing or on the ground[/QUOTE]
no its not
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1143157]It’s more proper to compare 2 persons with the same skill level. You have 2 arms and 2 legs. Your opponent also has 2 arms and 2 legs. Trying to assume that you can take your opponent down whenever that you want to (or the other way around) is not realistic IMO.
A friend of mine had made public statement that if anybody could take him down even once (when he plays 100% defense), he would give that person a black belt. He had just had his 70 years old birthday not too long ago. So far nobody had ever received a black belt from him through that short cut yet.[/QUOTE]
did he make this chalange to the local college wrestling team?:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Frost;1143212]did he make this chalange to the local college wrestling team?:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
One of my guys, a 250 lb formal Iranian wrestling champ (not sure the difference between Iranian wrestling and western wrestling), who can bench press 245 lb took the challenge and could not take him down. He only weight about 170 lb. That was more than 30 years ago. If kick and puch are allowed, the outcome could be different. I’m only taking about 100% wrestling here.
my real life experience with BJJ
I think you guys are worshipping some type of ideal that’s false. My personal experience with BJJ is different than what a lot of people are imagining. Being a BB Judo player, maybe my perspective is skewed, but, in my experience… and granted the highest BJJ’er I’ve competed against was a purple, but in my experience… BJJ players pull guard pretty much all the time because they are scared to stand up against an experienced Judo player. And, unless I feel like playing with them… I step out of their attempts at pull guard. Meaning, that unless I feel like it, I don’t have to newaza with them.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1143218]I think you guys are worshipping some type of ideal that’s false. My personal experience with BJJ is different than what a lot of people are imagining. Being a BB Judo player, maybe my perspective is skewed, but, in my experience… and granted the highest BJJ’er I’ve competed against was a purple, but in my experience… BJJ players pull guard pretty much all the time because they are scared to stand up against an experienced Judo player. And, unless I feel like playing with them… I step out of their attempts at pull guard. Meaning, that unless I feel like it, I don’t have to newaza with them.[/QUOTE]
Funny, I said the same thing on another thread and all the BJJ nutriders jumped all over it!!
BJJ is the ground. I have also seen many BJJ players pull guard at the beginning of a match just to get the fight to the ground. Their ground game is the best, no doubt about it. But if you want to learn throws and takedowns as well as defending them train wrestling or Judo, you will be better off.
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1143221]Funny, I said the same thing on another thread and all the BJJ nutriders jumped all over it!! BJJ is the ground. I have also seen many BJJ players pull guard at the beginning of a match just to get the fight to the ground. Their ground game is the best, no doubt about it. But if you want to learn throws and takedowns as well as defending them train wrestling or Judo, you will be better off.[/QUOTE]
I guess where I was going is that maybe John and Gino aren’t as off-base as people are trying to say when they say that they don’t have to worry as much about the newaza. Because, with their vast SC experience, they would be very hard to take down. So much so that I don’t think your average BJJer or MMAer would have much of a shot of getting them down if they didn’t want to get taken down.
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1143221]Funny, I said the same thing on another thread and all the BJJ nutriders jumped all over it!! BJJ is the ground. I have also seen many BJJ players pull guard at the beginning of a match just to get the fight to the ground. Their ground game is the best, no doubt about it. But if you want to learn throws and takedowns as well as defending them train wrestling or Judo, you will be better off.[/QUOTE]
I dont know why this would even be argued against . It’s so obvious from anyone whos trained strict bjj that their weakness is standing grappling and getting you to the mat.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1143218]I think you guys are worshipping some type of ideal that’s false. My personal experience with BJJ is different than what a lot of people are imagining. Being a BB Judo player, maybe my perspective is skewed, but, in my experience… and granted the highest BJJ’er I’ve competed against was a purple, but in my experience… BJJ players pull guard pretty much all the time because they are scared to stand up against an experienced Judo player. And, unless I feel like playing with them… I step out of their attempts at pull guard. Meaning, that unless I feel like it, I don’t have to newaza with them.[/QUOTE]
actually no one here has really mentioned BJJ in respect of takedowns, we said grapplers
I think everyone knows BJJ s*cks at takedowns compared to wrestling and Judo, but their takedowns are more than enough to deal with people who dont have standing grappling expereince and that if the fight hits the ground (which it probably will against a BJJ guy if all you know is striking) you are in trouble if you dont have solid ground skills
oh and they might be scared to stand and grapple with a judo bb, do you think they would be scared against someone only trained in striking?