What's wrong with sport fighting?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
41

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057617]
If you take your head out of the sand, you’ll also see the evidence of what happens whenever a sport fighter fights with a TCMAist – the sport fighter wins easily.
[/QUOTE]

Hmmm… A personal insult; nice. My head’s never been in the sand - perhaps your eyesight needs checking. I have seen the “evidence” of what you’re referring to. Ring matches where sport fighters win. I believe I said earlier on that they dominate that arena.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057617]
What we see time and time again is that that TCMAists can’t fight worth sh1t. Even when they fight with each other it is sh1t.
[/QUOTE]
Actually “we” have not seen that at all. It’s merely you making insulting remarks about an entire group of tens of thousands of people on a forum that caters to that very group. Personally I don’t think you have the magic wand to make that stereotypical generalization into fact. Keep working though.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057617]
The sport model develops skill; that’s why we see world class athletes.
[/QUOTE]
Yes true. Key words being sport + athletes and skill.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057617]
The fantasy all TCMAists – who haven’t adopted the sport model of training – share is that they can develop realistic fighting skills through unrealistic training.

Funny that. How is it that I have not turned my tcma into a sport and yet defeated armed & unarmed attackers both here & overseas several times? And oddly enough I don’t think I am the only TCMA-ist to say that. Even if I were - it would make your “ALL” statement false.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057617]
This is a very easy thing to prove – just go take your video camera to a MMA or MT gym and spar, and show the world that you or some other TCMA-trained person can easily handle yourself. Why is it we have never seen that?

I just proved it above. Why would I do as you ask? I am not interested in challenge matches, sport fighting nor brawling. And I don’t think I am alone in my interests. That’s why you have never seen that.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057617]
If TCMAs develop good levels of realistic fighting skills, then they should be able to use those skills on demand, in any situation. Why can’t we see any evidence of that?
[/QUOTE]
See above.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057617]
Or, is it like Bigfoot, you are sure it exists but just can’t provide any evidence?[/QUOTE]
lol not even going to justify your attempts at wit here.

42

Funny that. How is it that I have not turned my tcma into a sport and yet defeated armed & unarmed attackers both here & overseas several times? And oddly enough I don’t think I am the only TCMA-ist to say that. Even if I were - it would make your “ALL” statement false
.
So have many others, from both sport and non-sport, from both TCMA and modern sport systems.
Not really relevant to the discussion is it?

Fact is, while T maybe voicing his views in his typical unique manner, his points still stand.
I won’t say that “whenever a sport fighter fights a TMA he wins”, but I will say that the majority of the times that is the case, rules or NO rules ( and there have been enough of both).

43

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1057631].
So have many others, from both sport and non-sport, from both TCMA and modern sport systems.
Not really relevant to the discussion is it?
[/QUOTE]
I think it is relevant. Too many ppl use stereotypical statements of “ALL TCMA” is this or that and it’s offensive. Just making a simple to point out how that logic is flawed.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1057631].
Fact is, while T maybe voicing his views in his typical unique manner, his points still stand.
[/QUOTE]
And so do mine.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1057631].
I won’t say that “whenever a sport fighter fights a TMA he wins”, but I will say that the majority of the times that is the case, rules or NO rules ( and there have been enough of both).[/QUOTE]
Again - context of the term “fight”.

44

[QUOTE=Northwind;1057630]Hmmm… A personal insult; nice. My head’s never been in the sand - perhaps your eyesight needs checking. I have seen the “evidence” of what you’re referring to. Ring matches where sport fighters win. I believe I said earlier on that they dominate that arena.
[/QUOTE]

I didn’t make any personal insult. But all anyone needs to do is look around – we can see what sport fighters can do. And we can see what happens whenever sport fighters fight with TCMAists. And we never see any evidence of TCMAists demonstrating any significant fighting skills. What more do you need?

Actually “we” have not seen that at all. It’s merely you making insulting remarks about an entire group of tens of thousands of people on a forum that caters to that very group. Personally I don’t think you have the magic wand to make that stereotypical generalization into fact. Keep working though.

Sure we have. Why don’t you point me to some evidence of TCMAists that have good levels of fighting skills so that we can all see them for ourselves?

I can’t help it if you or they find the truth insulting.

We know what it takes to develop good fighting skills – and TCMAists aren’t doing the training that it takes.

Yes true. Key words being sport + athletes and skill.

Fighting is an athletic activity (even if you don’t want to believe it – and that’s one of the many problems with the TCMA perspective.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057617]
The fantasy all TCMAists – who haven’t adopted the sport model of training – share is that they can develop realistic fighting skills through unrealistic training.

Funny that. How is it that I have not turned my tcma into a sport and yet defeated armed & unarmed attackers both here & overseas several times? And oddly enough I don’t think I am the only TCMA-ist to say that. Even if I were - it would make your “ALL” statement false.

[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and I have killed hundreds of ninja.

Look, if you have fighting skills, then they will work on the str33t or the gym or a ring. Does your punch only work when no one is watching? :wink: If you have fighting skill, then it is the simplest thing to show: all you need to do is go to a good MMA or MT gym with your video camera. Be the first! Show the world what TCMAs can really do. No one can argue with evidence that we can see.

But we all know that you won’t do that. Because you would get your ass spanked by the white belt level MMA fighters.

I just proved it above. Why would I do as you ask? I am not interested in challenge matches, sport fighting nor brawling. And I don’t think I am alone in my interests. That’s why you have never seen that.

ROFLOL! Yeah, that’s it.

45

[QUOTE=Northwind;1057644]I think it is relevant. Too many ppl use stereotypical statements of “ALL TCMA” is this or that and it’s offensive. Just making a simple to point out how that logic is flawed.

And so do mine.

Again - context of the term “fight”.[/QUOTE]

No, saying that you can do something that others can do to is not relevant to a thread about “what is wrong with sport fighting”.
If NO sport fighters could do what you do, THEN it would be relevant.

“fight”, is not a subjective term-
–noun
1.
a battle or combat.
2.
any contest or struggle: a fight for recovery from an illness.
3.
an angry argument or disagreement: Whenever we discuss politics, we end up in a fight.
4.
Boxing . a bout or contest.
5.
a game or diversion in which the participants hit or pelt each other with something harmless: a pillow fight; a water fight.
6.
ability, will, or inclination to fight: There was no fight left in him.
–verb (used without object)
7.
to engage in battle or in single combat; attempt to defend oneself against or to subdue, defeat, or destroy an adversary.
8.
to contend in any manner; strive vigorously for or against something: He fought bravely against despair.
–verb (used with object)
9.
to contend with in battle or combat; war against: England fought Germany.
10.
to contend with or against in any manner: to fight despair; to fight the passage of a bill.
11.
to carry on (a battle, duel, etc.).
12.
to maintain (a cause, quarrel, etc.) by fighting or contending.
13.
to make (one’s way) by fighting or striving.
14.
to cause or set (a boxer, animal, etc.) to fight.
15.
to manage or maneuver (troops, ships, guns, planes, etc.) in battle.

One guy trying to beat another is a fight, period.

If sport fighting isn’t fighting then it should be all the more easier for a “real” fighter to be a “sport fighter”.

46

[QUOTE=Northwind;1057630] I have seen the “evidence” of what you’re referring to. Ring matches where sport fighters win. I believe I said earlier on that they dominate that arena.[/QUOTE]

Here’s some evidence for no rules fights where the sport fighters dominated again.

Kung fu master with 30 years experience vs. BJJ Blue Belt with 2 years experience:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEml6-JNwaA

BJJ purple belt vs. kung fu instructor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_taQXTem_X4&feature=related

BJJ BB Royler Gracie vs. Street Kempo BB:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTMCc3zQNyo&feature=related

Rorion Gracie vs. BB Hapkido Instructor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-srqZb7Kbg&feature=related

BJJ purple belt vs. Aikijujutsu Master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&p=F2DF177DC7FC3F79&playnext=1&index=37

Misc Gracies vs. Misc Karate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAhyB1xFuKM

BJJ BB vs. karate BB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlleDPgmDVM

Got any for no rules where the non-sport guys won?

47

[QUOTE=LAPD;1057653]Here’s some evidence for no rules fights where the sport fighters dominated again.

Got any for no rules where the non-sport guys won?[/QUOTE]

Haven’t you heard? TCMAists, or “real fighters”, aren’t “interested in challenge matches, sport fighting nor brawling” or proving to anyone that they really have skills. Apparently, TCMAists, only fight in secret, they have never been caught on tape (like Bigfoot).

48

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057656]Haven’t you heard? TCMAists, or “real fighters”, aren’t “interested in challenge matches, sport fighting nor brawling” or proving to anyone that they really have skills. Apparently, TCMAists, only fight in secret, they have never been caught on tape (like Bigfoot).[/QUOTE]

Amazing about the anecdotes of the developers and reknown practioners of TCMA that actually did fight, one wonders what was going through THEIR heads when THEY FOUGHT to test and develop their arts?
I guess they would be looked down upon by the “enlightened” and “authentic” TCMA of today.

49

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1057659]Amazing about the anecdotes of the developers and reknown practioners of TCMA that actually did fight, one wonders what was going through THEIR heads when THEY FOUGHT to test and develop their arts?
I guess they would be looked down upon by the “enlightened” and “authentic” TCMA of today.[/QUOTE]

Somehow I have a feeling most of them fought much less than the anecdotes would suggest.

50

[QUOTE=LAPD;1057662]Somehow I have a feeling most of them fought much less than the anecdotes would suggest.[/QUOTE]

How dare you question the legends! We all know that Davey Crockett killed a bear when he was three.

51

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057645]I didn’t make any personal insult. [/QUOTE]
Saying I have to take my head out of the sand is not a compliment. What would you call it? (Gee am I going to get sarcasm in return?)

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057645]
But all anyone needs to do is look around – we can see what sport fighters can do. And we can see what happens whenever sport fighters fight with TCMAists. And we never see any evidence of TCMAists demonstrating any significant fighting skills. What more do you need?
[/QUOTE]
What more do I need for what? The “evidence” you’re referring to, again, is fighting in the ring at combat sporting events, which I’ve already said, again, they will dominate that arena.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057645]
Sure we have. Why don’t you point me to some evidence of TCMAists that have good levels of fighting skills so that we can all see them for ourselves?
[/QUOTE]
No. “WE” have not. History has shown them. I have seen them. Youtube ufc fight clips? No. I’m not into that.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057645]
I can’t help it if you or they find the truth insulting.
[/QUOTE]
Your “theory” is not “truth”. Your insults are insulting (and your attitude).
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057645]
We know what it takes to develop good fighting skills – and TCMAists aren’t doing the training that it takes.

Who is the “WE”? Again it’s context.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057645]
Fighting is an athletic activity (even if you don’t want to believe it – and that’s one of the many problems with the TCMA perspective.

LMAO - you’ve never been to one of my classes - pretty sure the athleticism is strong, so your alluding to my not believing it is moot. My point was “skill” as a keyword - being context relevant.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057645]
Yeah, and I have killed hundreds of ninja.
[/QUOTE]
Awesome. Can I get a side of pirates with that?
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057645]
Look, if you have fighting skills, then they will work on the str33t or the gym or a ring.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe yes, maybe no. Context is important.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057645]
Does your punch only work when no one is watching? :wink:
[/QUOTE]
Yep. It’s like quantum-physics and stuff man and I just don’t get it. As soon as someone watches me, my hand just falls to the floor. Please give me the secret to be able to punch when people watch… :stuck_out_tongue:
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057645]
If you have fighting skill, then it is the simplest thing to show: all you need to do is go to a good MMA or MT gym with your video camera. Be the first! Show the world what TCMAs can really do. No one can argue with evidence that we can see.
[/QUOTE]
And pray tell…Just why do I need to “show” anything? It works for me - I use my fighting ability when I need to - not to “prove” anything. I never got into the martial arts to “show” anybody anything - there’s a KEY difference…
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057645]
But we all know that you won’t do that. Because you would get your ass spanked by the white belt level MMA fighters.
[/QUOTE]
No insults eh?
You’re right I won’t do that. But I sure as hell know it’s not because I would be beat - but because there is zero point to it.

52

[QUOTE=LAPD;1057662]Somehow I have a feeling most of them fought much less than the anecdotes would suggest.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps, but the point is that they DID fight, DID test which means that modern TCMA have NO EXCUSE not to do the same.

53

If sport fighting isn’t fighting then it should be all the more easier for a “real” fighter to be a “sport fighter”.

Sport Fighting IS fighting. Street fighting IS fighting. The only difference is one trains on a professional or advanced level of “FIGHTING” while others looks at TCMA as a sort of HOBBY so to speak. Learning TCMA will never make you a fighter. But, by learning TCMA you should be able to APPLY your learned skills to be taken seriously.

a street fighter will fight a MMA guy if he has to even if it means he will get his arse kicked. but he won’t back down. today, you’ll get a Kung Fu big mouth that freezes when the spot light hits him. this is why gung fu gets a bad name. but a street fighter who picked up gung fu to supplement his arsenal has a better chance than your hokey pokey finoke gung fu guy.

It’s true, many TCMA people of late have been nothing more than FORM *****S. It’s been MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE of being a TCMA’er that there are two…maybe three kinds of TCMA’er. i’ll focus one two…

One: is your local neighborhood KUNG FU school who only fight in point tournaments and would NEVER put themselves in the light of being a THUG…a RUFFIAN. TWO: then you have your schools that are deeply connected to the TONG societies. It’s within this setting that gungfu students are more likely than not get into fights. and we then get called GANGSTERS cause we WILL fight you. WTF

The problem with TCMA is that the neighborhood schools only fight in patty cake settings. The Tong schools prefer to stay out of the ring and only use their gung fu in the streets. In the end, i’ve never in my life heard a gung fu school say there were too deadly. that is a very foreign thought because any kind of a fighter knows there’s someone out there that is a better fighter than him.

IF more gung fu schools today de-emphasized forms practice and heavily encouraged FIGHT TRAINING before ever teaching a student a form the benefit will be two fold. one, you know how to fight. two, when you do your forms you will have a better understanding of what you’re doing in them.

But, MMA is ALL FIGHT. which is more condusive for the athletic types. not everyone is an athlete. And, it wouldn’t be fair to those who want to learn a martial art for all the reasons aside from fighting.

MMA’s mindset, conditioning, skills are right where they need to be. as a gung fu person i will be the one to say yes gung fu people need to wake up and WORK THEIR GUNG FU. I remember along time ago when Gung Fu had a great reputation for fighting. somewhere down the line we all turned to studio fighters and theorists. But i have faith that because of MMA…KUNG FU is either going to rise to the occasion or fall to the way side.

I know what i plan to do.

54

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1057650]No, saying that you can do something that others can do to is not relevant to a thread about “what is wrong with sport fighting”.
If NO sport fighters could do what you do, THEN it would be relevant.
[/QUOTE]
You’re taking what I said completely out of context. It was a REPLY to what was said to me - not a reply to the statement of the thread subject line - thus making it relevant.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1057650]
“fight”, is not a subjective term-
snip…One guy trying to beat another is a fight, period…snip
[/QUOTE]
Yes, it is. Someone jumping me in an alleyway. I must use “fighting skills” but it’s not a “fight” in the same manner that a “fight” happens in the ring.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1057650]
If sport fighting isn’t fighting then it should be all the more easier for a “real” fighter to be a “sport fighter”.[/QUOTE]

I never said that it wasn’t fighting - I am saying that the context is key.

55

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057656]Haven’t you heard? TCMAists, or “real fighters”, aren’t “interested in challenge matches, sport fighting nor brawling” or proving to anyone that they really have skills. Apparently, TCMAists, only fight in secret, they have never been caught on tape (like Bigfoot).[/QUOTE]
LMAO Yeah, that’s it.

56

[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1057684]Sport Fighting IS fighting. Street fighting IS fighting. The only difference is one trains on a professional or advanced level of “FIGHTING” while others looks at TCMA as a sort of HOBBY so to speak. .[/QUOTE]

I think you will find the majority of participants in sport fighting (as well as all other sporting activities) are hobbiests also.

But, MMA is ALL FIGHT. which is more condusive for the athletic types. not everyone is an athlete. And, it wouldn’t be fair to those who want to learn a martial art for all the reasons aside from fighting.

My experience has been that the sport fighting model attracts athletes, but also turns non-athletes into athletes.

57

[QUOTE=Northwind;1057686]You’re taking what I said completely out of context. It was a REPLY to what was said to me - not a reply to the statement of the thread subject line - thus making it relevant.

Yes, it is. Someone jumping me in an alleyway. I must use “fighting skills” but it’s not a “fight” in the same manner that a “fight” happens in the ring.

I never said that it wasn’t fighting - I am saying that the context is key.[/QUOTE]

Context is indeed the key AND the context is that if you can’t be effective in a limited rules environment you will be even LESS effective in a NO RULES one.
THAT is the context.

58

My experience has been that the sport fighting model attracts athletes, but also turns non-athletes into athletes.

This is true. But, IMHO if MMA were to give FORMS a chance it would open their eyes to another level not higher…just a different level of things. But with everything in life comes balance…right now…there is no real balance in martial arts. not yet.

59

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1057695]Context is indeed the key AND the context is that if you can’t be effective in a limited rules environment you will be even LESS effective in a NO RULES one.
THAT is the context.[/QUOTE]
Okay now that is just plain confusing how you’r taking statements out of context and re-working them with an ending statement that’s in a different context. I’m confused.
Since people in TCMAs have been able to defend themselves from attackers, then that seems pretty dam effective to me.

60

[QUOTE=Northwind;1057707]Okay now that is just plain confusing how you’r taking statements out of context and re-working them with an ending statement that’s in a different context. I’m confused.
Since people in TCMAs have been able to defend themselves from attackers, then that seems pretty dam effective to me.[/QUOTE]

TCMA people Defending themselves from an attacker is relevant ONLY if sport fighters couldn’t do that, and that is CERTAINLY not the case.
My point is this:
Sport fighting is basically fighting when 'all else is equal" and as such, puts the opponents on as equal a ground as possible ( within the ruleset if there is one) and as such, IF you CAN’T win there, you have even LESS hope of winning when things are NOT equal.
As has been proven over and over again.