oh yeah…they were training for a Point sparring type of tournament with no head shots. they trained the entire time on body shots. they sparred most times with 12 3 minute rounds. but yeah, there were rules in this fighting. and we still got dq’d. which turned out to be a complete waist of time.
This “argument” has been going on since the sport model was applied to martial arts.
The rationale for why the sport model is vastly superior to the traditional model of training is easily found on the web(it’s based on the specificity principle of skill development: that we only develop a skill by really doing that skill). It’s pointless to rehash it.
The TMAs are infested with people who want to believe that they can develop fighting skills without fighting.
The bottom like is that the evidence proves that the sport model of training is simply a vast improvement over the traditional approach to MA training. We see this from the results obtained by people doing the training. Not argument, not what we fantasize, not our speculation, etc. but from the evidence.
And the evidence is that people who are sport-trained develop USABLE and DEMONSTRABLE fighting skills more quickly and to much, much higher levels than those who use TMA-type training.
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1056870]oh yeah…they were training for a Point sparring type of tournament with no head shots. they trained the entire time on body shots. they sparred most times with 12 3 minute rounds. but yeah, there were rules in this fighting. and we still got dq’d. which turned out to be a complete waist of time.[/QUOTE]
OK, so, again, it does beg the question. Where is it you guys are training without rules?
ok, so, again, it does beg the question. Where is it you guys are training without rules?
secret -classified - on a need to know basis 
LMAO…are you ALWAYS on DEBUNK MODE? LMAO…ancient chinese secret
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1056910]secret -classified - on a need to know basis :D[/QUOTE]
Frank- can you see why we give you are hard time for this cr@p? First you put down sport fighting because it has rules. Then the only evidence you can provide for your contact training is two guys heavily geared up, sparring with more rules than you can shake a fist at. Then, when asked where any evidence is that you are training without the rules, you give an answer like this.
Can you see how people might conclude you are lying and being fraudulent?
Frank- can you see why we give you are hard time for this cr@p? First you put down sport fighting because it has rules. Then the only evidence you can provide for your contact training is two guys heavily geared up, sparring with more rules than you can shake a fist at. Then, when asked where any evidence is that you are training without the rules, you give an answer like this.
Can you see how people might conclude you are lying and being fraudulent?
DUDE, i’m nowhere near the kind of people you are focusing on. You think im putting it down. How can i put it down if i’m pushing for my students to go that route? What you see as fighting and I see as fighting are not the same. that’s ok. i’m not against bjj because for someone who has been in enough street fights that went to the ground i know the benefit of BJJ. I don’t put down any styles or methods. I recognize the hogwash and make sure my stuff is hog wash free.
I haven’t condemned any fighting method. i only raise my hand to indicate that TCMA is on a Sunday Football game at the park with your friends while MMA is more on a NFL level. do you see my point. In MANY cases i totally agree with you and you make enough sense that i turn and look at what i teach so that my students don’t get the short end of the stick.
and dude, my answer to you is one with my tongue sticking out at you…or smiled…but i answered you that way cause i knew it would push your buttons. i don’t have filim of my guys fighting all out with no rules. in a controlled setting there are always rules. i know this. it’s YOU who are running around like you have nothing better to do in life but get up the arses of TCMA people.
Additionally, there is a hand full of worth while people here on the forum. i’m not on here to impress anyone. so i have nothing to prove. i participate on this forum because its a community of Martial artists on all levels.
if YOU are not training BS to your guys, why waste your time and energy on a forum pent up with all that energy? LET or ALLOW the others to teach their mess. the way you go off all the time makes people think you’re kinda off your rocker whether you make your points or not.
my question to you is this…why has this become your obsession? like you see, i too see the garbage some people talk about. and i mean from almost everyone here on the forum. but my sifu taught me to keep my mouth shut in most cases but sometimes what people come up with here on the forum is outlandish…too outlandish that i can’t stay quiet.
to conclude, you know why i don’t post up things we train other than very low level basics? cause i don’t want outsiders to see how we train. it’s a tradition of my lineage going back to the beginning. but moreso, i have nothing to prove. i’m not making wild claims like CLF beats all. i do say CLF has a great stand up game. i openly admit that its ground game is non existent.
but i’m not an open book for any old tom d1ck and harry to attempt to pick apart what i teach. i was raised in a secretive society and you can say that rubbed off on me. trust me, there is much more to me than i publicly share.
Can you see how people might conclude you are lying and being fraudulent?
i know that people will come to whatever conclusions their minds reach. i know for sure that no one has YET to walk away from my training claiming its fraudulent. what i teach is practical techniques for practical situations. i don’t not claim to be on the MMA level.
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1056941]DUDE, i’m nowhere near the kind of people you are focusing on. You think im putting it down. How can i put it down if i’m pushing for my students to go that route? What you see as fighting and I see as fighting are not the same. that’s ok. i’m not against bjj because for someone who has been in enough street fights that went to the ground i know the benefit of BJJ. I don’t put down any styles or methods. I recognize the hogwash and make sure my stuff is hog wash free.
I haven’t condemned any fighting method. i only raise my hand to indicate that TCMA is on a Sunday Football game at the park with your friends while MMA is more on a NFL level. do you see my point. In MANY cases i totally agree with you and you make enough sense that i turn and look at what i teach so that my students don’t get the short end of the stick.
and dude, my answer to you is one with my tongue sticking out at you…or smiled…but i answered you that way cause i knew it would push your buttons. i don’t have filim of my guys fighting all out with no rules. in a controlled setting there are always rules. i know this. it’s YOU who are running around like you have nothing better to do in life but get up the arses of TCMA people.
Additionally, there is a hand full of worth while people here on the forum. i’m not on here to impress anyone. so i have nothing to prove. i participate on this forum because its a community of Martial artists on all levels.
if YOU are not training BS to your guys, why waste your time and energy on a forum pent up with all that energy? LET or ALLOW the others to teach their mess. the way you go off all the time makes people think you’re kinda off your rocker whether you make your points or not.
my question to you is this…why has this become your obsession? like you see, i too see the garbage some people talk about. and i mean from almost everyone here on the forum. but my sifu taught me to keep my mouth shut in most cases but sometimes what people come up with here on the forum is outlandish…too outlandish that i can’t stay quiet.
to conclude, you know why i don’t post up things we train other than very low level basics? cause i don’t want outsiders to see how we train. it’s a tradition of my lineage going back to the beginning. but moreso, i have nothing to prove. i’m not making wild claims like CLF beats all. i do say CLF has a great stand up game. i openly admit that its ground game is non existent.
but i’m not an open book for any old tom d1ck and harry to attempt to pick apart what i teach. i was raised in a secretive society and you can say that rubbed off on me. trust me, there is much more to me than i publicly share.[/QUOTE]
Tell ya what… you want me to stop making fun of you? Then quit making statement about the rules of the sport model when you clearly have them in everything you do.
traditional martial arts are better and this video proves it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlBj1GiQaI4
can a sport fighter do a flip over a sword or become invisible (3.35)? NO so fvck u!!1
Tell ya what… you want me to stop making fun of you? Then quit making statement about the rules of the sport model when you clearly have them in everything you do.
brother you can make fun of me all you want. will that change who i am? will it change the perspective of anyone who comes to train with me? No. LOL.
Look, i can make fun of you as much as you do me. Do i? really? i try to play with you to get you to lighten up.
How about this, if i talk about sports model rules, i will also openly admit to having rules during my students sparring. deal?
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1056955]brother you can make fun of me all you want. will that change who i am? will it change the perspective of anyone who comes to train with me? No. LOL.
Look, i can make fun of you as much as you do me. Do i? really? i try to play with you to get you to lighten up.
How about this, if i talk about sports model rules, i will also openly admit to having rules during my students sparring. deal?[/QUOTE]
Sounds fair.
i was gonna say can i get that in writing…but i guess you beat me to it hahahaha.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1056883]
The TMAs are infested with people who want to believe that they can develop fighting skills without fighting.
[/QUOTE]
“Infested” perhaps, like a house infested with termites, and thusly does not mean all houses equal termites and the house model should be demolished by those living in fancy caves.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1056883]
The bottom like is that the evidence proves that the sport model of training is simply a vast improvement over the traditional approach to MA training.
[/QUOTE]
This “evidence” IS sport fighting. Sport fighting will do awesome in sport fighting competitions. Period.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1056883] …not what we fantasize, not our speculation, etc. but from the evidence.[/QUOTE]
And so since maybe you’ve seen a kung fu flick before, then all TCMA-ers believe we can skim over tree-tops? What fantasies do all TCMA’s share? lol My evidence is in me.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1056883]
And the evidence is that people who are sport-trained develop USABLE and DEMONSTRABLE fighting skills more quickly and to much, much higher levels than those who use TMA-type training.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm… Sorry chief but you’re wrong here too.
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1053380]
3. Several people have commented on “dirty fighting”, and there is an unmistakable social issue with ‘fighting dirty’ in the Sport community. Not a vulnerability exactly, but a social stigma. That in itself speaks volumes to my mind.
.[/QUOTE]
Not sure what you meant by this, exactly.
This “evidence” IS sport fighting. Sport fighting will do awesome in sport fighting competitions. Period.
sorry not much of a jump from the ring to the “street” not much jump at all. Plus in place you already have the foundation for resistance tested. There is no Period. only period you have is pajama wearing fools trying to show case special “powers.”
And so since maybe you’ve seen a kung fu flick before, then all TCMA-ers believe we can skim over tree-tops? What fantasies do all TCMA’s share? lol My evidence is in me.
the general concensus is what is shared.
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
And the evidence is that people who are sport-trained develop USABLE and DEMONSTRABLE fighting skills more quickly and to much, much higher levels than those who use TMA-type training.
Hmmm… Sorry chief but you’re wrong here too.
fighters develop quicker, usable, fighting skills in a much shorter time than traditional arts. If you don’t think so lets put some “master” in the ring with lets say… um… George Saint P. and don’t site the “realz deadly” argument on this one, the first UFC’s had barely any rules in place and we could look at Vale Tudo if you wanna go down that road.
I also teach tcma,hung kuen in particular but we also join sanda tournaments..
I see it like that:we (me or my students) do not claim anything..hung kuen has techniques thats useless for sportfighting but usefull for selfdefence (not in a too deadly sense) .. coming in a situation where u have to defend yourself doesnt happen on a daily basis of course also depents where you hang about..if you come into a combat situation most likely the person you fight with is not an mma guy or similar sport fighter..most sport fighter i know arent thugs sort of peeps..so most likely u fight off a drunk etc.
Im in germany,most of the cma schools here also join sanda,many include even ground fighting (having seminars at their schools etc,where they invite bjj people etc) also none of them claim any too deadly for the streets stuff..as a matter of fact I have been living on the philippines and hongkong for almost 6 years and met many cma teachers there and most of them were realistic about their abilities…fact remains u cant learn fighting without fighting..how far u go is up to you…as for videos;I know people I wish they had videos up so people could see cma is better than it appears on the net..but what is the net? Most people from cma fields I know dont care about the net,people here on the board is just a small percentage and doesnt reflect the general state of cma…Im back in germany since a year and already joined sanda fights we lost some we won some nothing special,I have a russian wrestler come to my school on a regular basis..thats for the sanda guys but also for whoever is interested…I think Im just one of many,many more than people may think…oh yeah we also train forms,I dont know about other styles but our forms make strong and healthy..not teach fighting but very good for health,breathing,stammina,strength etc..forms are only trained in the last 15 minutes of each class…just giving some thoughts from my side of things
oh yeah we also train forms,I dont know about other styles but our forms make strong and healthy..not teach fighting but very good for health,breathing,stammina,strength etc..forms are only trained in the last 15 minutes of each class…just giving some thoughts from my side of things
I have nothing against forms if what you are promoting is what you mentioned, In my earlier years I learned 100’s of forms, I still do some here and there that I find benifical in the departments you listed. When someone starts spouting that forms are fighting argument is when I raise the red flag.
funny that you list the last 15 minutes of class as forms time, my early years was the same, you learned maybe 3-4 moves and then practiced on your own until next class and if it was good enough you were taught 3-4 more movements. 
This sport vs “traditional” thing is nonsense. It seems that people use the expression “TMA” to refer to hippie tree hugging form training. In martial arts, tradition = fighting, because that’s what the creators of the arts had in mind. The non-fighting, no-effort, no-sweat no-blood kind of training is a deturpation - which is not intrinsically bad, but it’s not what you should do if you want to practice anything worthy of the “martial” adjective.
There is nothing wrong with the sport mode of fighting, it build all the things needed for being a good fighter: Speed, stamina, strength, skill, intent and the fighter learns very quickly what works and what doesn’t.
It is true that it has rules and limitations, but what that truly means is that if you can’t win under those conditions, when there is some “level field”, how do you hope to win when there are NONE ??
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1057252]sorry not much of a jump from the ring to the “street” not much jump at all. [/QUOTE]
Not much jump? No ref., no stand-off, no timed match, no prior knowledge of opponent…I’d say that there is quite a jump.
Applications learning is different from applications practice, which is different from 2-man drills, which is different from 2-man forms, which is different from sparring, which is different from fighting, which is different from sport combat, which is different from military tactics on the battlefield, which is different from personal self-defense, which is different from debating, which is different from…
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1057252]
There is no Period. only period you have is pajama wearing fools trying to show case special “powers.”
[/QUOTE]
I would agree. But interestingly enough I don’t think we have anyone on these forums like that ("pajama wearing fools trying to show case special “powes”)…
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1057252]
fighters develop quicker, usable, fighting skills in a much shorter time than traditional arts. [/QUOTE]
General sweeping stereotypical statement again. Depends on the context of what a “fighter” is and what a “fight” is. See my “different from” statements above.
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1057252]
If you don’t think so lets put some “master” in the ring with lets say… um… George Saint P. [/QUOTE]
“Let’s” = let us. I would think that if said “master” were interested in doing so then he/she would. That’s not up to you nor me. And again, context of words.
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1057252]
and don’t site the “realz deadly” argument on this one, the first UFC’s had barely any rules in place and we could look at Vale Tudo if you wanna go down that road.[/QUOTE]
I’ve never “site” (cite)d anything of the sort, so the “on this one” reference is moot.
[QUOTE=Northwind;1057113]"
This “evidence” IS sport fighting. Sport fighting will do awesome in sport fighting competitions. Period.
[/QUOTE]
If you take your head out of the sand, you’ll also see the evidence of what happens whenever a sport fighter fights with a TCMAist – the sport fighter wins easily. What we see time and time again is that that TCMAists can’t fight worth sh1t. Even when they fight with each other it is sh1t.
The sport model develops skill; that’s why we see world class athletes.
And so since maybe you’ve seen a kung fu flick before, then all TCMA-ers believe we can skim over tree-tops? What fantasies do all TCMA’s share? lol My evidence is in me.
The fantasy all TCMAists – who haven’t adopted the sport model of training – share is that they can develop realistic fighting skills through unrealistic training.
Hmmm… Sorry chief but you’re wrong here too.
This is a very easy thing to prove – just go take your video camera to a MMA or MT gym and spar, and show the world that you or some other TCMA-trained person can easily handle yourself. Why is it we have never seen that?
If TCMAs develop good levels of realistic fighting skills, then they should be able to use those skills on demand, in any situation. Why can’t we see any evidence of that?
Or, is it like Bigfoot, you are sure it exists but just can’t provide any evidence?