What's wrong with sport fighting?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
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<respect>

OK, we have a general agreement that training like you fight, or as close as possible, is better than not. This seems to be the crux of the MMA argument, as articulated most succinctly by Knife fighter, who will elaborate I’m sure if he feels necessary.

We have also argued that high intensity combat training is demanding, and is a significant, but limited part, to a lifetime in Martial arts. You can’t claim to be a top level MA without the blood to show for it. Yours or theirs is practically irrelevant.

So, this isn’t about disrespect or dissent on sport fighting, its mainly a question for TCMA people, to examine how to get results with alternative training as well, to complete our picture and to lose the essential skills of your style.

</respect>

  1. To my mind, sport fighting is a lot like Chi Sau, or Push hands. It limits your expression of your complete skills in favour of a very engaging sub set that becomes a game. To focus on any one element of your training for too long takes away from other skills, and becomes the skill itself. This is it for lots of guys, and fair enough, no problems with that. I prefer that kind of person to the split personality that claims TCMA but fights without TCMA.

  2. Likewise, it takes you to a common denominator. Once you learn sport fighting, you practice it towards the skills of other sport fighters, and this can diminish some of your unconventional techniques, that have to be trained nevertheless, even though you can’t use them in that format.

  3. Several people have commented on “dirty fighting”, and there is an unmistakable social issue with ‘fighting dirty’ in the Sport community. Not a vulnerability exactly, but a social stigma. That in itself speaks volumes to my mind.

  4. I don’t think sport fighting is the ultimate measure of skill, because I consider MA skill to both precede conflict and to follow after it, a comprehensive strategy for self defence. Thus, sport fighting is simply one more approximate expression of your skills, simulating an alternative situation.

I think you have to sport fight as part of your MA career, preferably earlier than later, because once you have those foundation skills, you can sharpen them with TCMA, given you have access to some substance. Big if, I know.

That’s my ‘one man’s opinion’. And basically, you have to consider that TCMA is about more than just fighting to see my point of view.

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Nothing is wrong with sport fighting at all. IMHO it has its place its time to shine is NOW. TCMA has been time tested and has survived centuries amidst all types of fighters from Kung Fu to Foreign boxers choosing to pick on the smaller men of asia to prove their point. In the end, some gung fu people came out on top while others fell to the wayside.

IMHO…it all started with the original UFC where the idea that Kung Fu can beat BJJ. Take that kung fu vs BJJ video Knifefighter is always posting. It took me some time to realize where the problem was because on a general level TCMA has proven to be effective in the past be it on the street or the ring. however, it was minus the BJJ and MMA at the time. So, where TCMA went wrong trying to fight BJJ people is that BJJ or any type of JuJitsu had nothing to do with TCMA. It’s like apples and oranges. and of course Kung Fu came out on the losing end.

For most of TCMA BJJ was a losing battle. PERIOD. the fight on the ground while TCMA’s focus was on STAND UP. I feel if BJJ would have fought TCMA on TCMA’s level it would have been an interesting turn out.

The evolution of the UFC was MMA (IMHO) and the professional fighter title. regardless to what level, MMA woke TCMA up in a major way. at least for some of us it has. It’s made us pay attention to a weakness…effective ground game. I think if ANY style of TCMA were to place the same emphasis on training as MMA does it wouldn’t have the bad rap that it does.

Sports fighting is good for the FIGHTER in you. But in some cases it limits you to using certain techniques (some may say YEAH THE MOST EFFECTIVE). I’m not a fan of “FANCY” techniques at all. And the CLF lineage i belong to has always focused on fighting aggressive people. we have always modified our stuff if we thought it had no effectiveness. We also shaped it to individuals since TCMA is an individual endeavor.

Sports fighting is just that though. Martial Art fighting on a professional level. just like foot ball…baseball…basket ball. Some people like to play as a past time and are pretty good at it doing so over time. being “PROFESSIONAL” is another LEVEL of the game meant for those who can afford to spend their lives training all day. TCMA of old i’m sure was like that. I mean what else could you do out in the mountains with no tv, dance clubs, ball games or MMA matches to watch?

The only thing i think is wrong with sports fighting is RULES.

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MY question IS…

What is TCMA supposed to look like in combat? So many people say TCMA looks like KICKBOXING. However, TCMA people have always stood by the claim of “if you put gloves on me you take away from my style”. Yes, mma gloves today have the open fingers but still limit what we do with our hands. So to compensate TCMA during certain EVENTS used the most basic of techniques which tend to be very similar to others systems. theres only so many ways to punch kick and block.

But, honestly, is TCMA people supposed to fight like what you see in the movies? classical gung fu? has anyone ever seen a real fight looking like classical gung fu? Isn’t FIGHTING supposed to be as natural as possible? with gloves on can you see a phoenix eye fist? A tiger claw? a panther fist? the only things you see on a gloved hand is A hand with a round glove on it.

i’m tired of MMA type of people or armchair warriors who think they have the answer cause they spend more time in their chairs watching you move pause play pause play pause play…move for move then analyze what they would have done as an answer.

  1. I don’t think sport fighting is the ultimate measure of skill, because I consider MA skill to both precede conflict and to follow after it, a comprehensive strategy for self defence. Thus, sport fighting is simply one more approximate expression of your skills, simulating an alternative situation.

I agree with the above. the true test whether your martial arts works or not is if you effectively defend yourself from danger. On the street you have to worry about someone stabbing you, hitting you with a bat or what not, or just physically trying to attack you with his hands or feet. People who’ve fought in the streets prior to learning martial arts are more prone to ground fighting than a TCMA guy or girl would be. i’ve gone to the ground in many of my fights in the past. and i’ve effectively used the sprawl without ever learning wrestling, you just learn out of experience. in fact one of the things i’ve done a prefer is the guillatine, i never knew it was called that until MMA.

Sports fighing has its place, its really just for the money and entertainment purposes. its effective yes…but to be a fighter does it necessarily mean the onyl good fighters in martial arts are sports fighters? NO

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[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1053395]What is TCMA supposed to look like in combat?[/QUOTE]
CMA = “sport fight” + “combat fight”.

We all know what CMA “sport fight” suppose to look like. But we don’t know what CMA “combat fight” suppose to look like.

In Longfist system, there are moves that you grab

  • a handful of sand from the ground, throw at your opponent’s face (some people use this move as a groin attack), and then jump in and beat your opponent up.
  • on your opponent’s shirt, raise your leg, pull out a dagger from your boot, and stab that dagger into your opponent’s heart (some people use this move as a hammer fist on the head).

That’s pretty much what “combat fight” suppose to look like. Same moves as used in sport but with different application.

Weapon like this is used to kill and not used to dance with.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/20/schook.jpg

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In Longfist system, there is a move that you garb a handful of sand from the ground, throw at your opponent’s face (some people use this move as a groin attack), and then jump in and beat your opponent up. That’s pretty much what “combat fight” suppose to look like.

not the technique, but the mindset is the same for CLF. CLF’s flow allows us to have an effective answer in any situation (aside from ground fighting).

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The SC system also has different mindset between “sport” and “combat”. In “sport”, your goal is to take your opponent down. In “combat”, your goal is to crack your oppopent’s skull.

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The SC system also has different mindset between “sport” and “combat”. In “sport”, your goal is to take your opponent down. In “combat”, your goal is to crack your oppopent’s skull.
Reply With Quote

right!!!

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MMA being sport fighting is just that. A sport. In any sport, in order for it to be sanctioned, it has to have strengent rules. Only certain techniques are allowed. No matter what background of fighting you might have, your trained skills are not allowed, with the exception of those that are allowed by rule in the sport. This pretty much makes everyone on a level playing field. No amount of training in any form of martial art is going to make a difference simply because it can not be used. And because it is a sport and heavily governed by rules, and of course a referee to save your a$$, it is not even close to real fighting. Real fighting has no rules, and anyone that claims dirty fighting is a fool. Your only aim is to kill or seriously injure an oponent in a real fight. There is no submitting an opponent.

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The really funny thing to me is that the MMA crowd likes to diss on CMAs and act like wrestling never existed in China, likes it’s a new thing and CMAs didn’t develop with wrestling in the mix.

If you look at Hung Gar, for example, the stance work looks to me like a direct strategic response to dealing with grapplers. Drop your center of gravity so low that you can’t be thrown.

Anyways, it’s never black and white…and I agree with the MMA crowd that if you are highly skilled you should be able to do SOMETHING with headgear and gloves on. Most TMAs have some punches and kicks in there and you can pull those out and put them to use in a sporting venue.

That being said, some techniques you have to look to the traditional training methods to develop. For example, if you look at the development of push hands, it wasn’t about training “energy” or some esoteric namsy-pamsy but a way to train locks without hurting or getting hurt.

EO

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[QUOTE=Eric Olson;1053427]Drop your center of gravity so low that you can’t be thrown. [/QUOTE]
This assumption may not work all the time. If your opponent wants to stay

  • low, you will help him to stay lower by pressing him down.
  • high, you will help him to stay higher by lifting him up.
  • wide, you will help him to stay wider by springing his leg from inside out.
  • narrow, you will help him to stay narrower by sweep his leg from outside in.

There is no single perfect stance that can be used to against throw but constant changing.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1053432]There is no single perfect stance that can be used to against throw but constant changing.[/QUOTE]

this is absolutely true,but theres also no claim that theres a stance that can defend all takedowns…but lowering ur center of weight is “one” good way for certain takedowns..of course the stance alone doesnt do the work..also footwork and arm control…

the only sportfighting we do is sanda,combat you cant really train just prepare,then again the average person doesnt have to fight for his life on a daily basis..so sanda or any other sportfighting at least gives you a bit of a feeling for distance,timing etc…

anyway when the schit hit´s the fan it always goes back to:
yat daam, yi lek, saam gung fu…
:slight_smile:

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are you referring to actually competing or the way sports guys train with emphasis on sparring under agreed rules with gross motor movements and using progressive resistance? If it’s the latter then sports fighting can cover virtually anything you want: from stand up to clinch and ground, with and without weapons and with more than 1 opponent if you wish, you can allow so called dirty tactics or not and the level or protection used is totally up to you

If you mean guys who actually compete then its different you have to play by the agreed rules and when training for a comp you do train towards those rules so in that sense you do not train everything, in the fact you don’t use certain hand formations or attack illegal areas (your dirty tactics)……… BUT even so they still push the rules to the limit and use as many dirty tactics as you can get away with, head butts in the clinch, neck cranks if the refs not looking, chin in the eye etc so its not as if sports guys have a moral dislike to them, its just they know that there are rules and you can only get away with so much

So comparing the above to chi sao or pushing hands I feel is wrong: chi sao and pushing hands concentrate on one small area of fighting I agree, they teach close range fighting skills and as such concentrate on only one area of combat, sports training as I have pointed out above can cover everything.

Now if you are just referring to grappling/rolling then that is more like chi sao etc in that it only covers a small part of fighting, but then I don’t know any pure grapplers who think what they are doing is fighting or will really allow them to defend themselves in the street, they know grappling might help but its not the whole game

The underlying question remains what is the best way to train for the street and to train those dirty tactics and techniques you cant spar with? To develop a sound sports based delivery system first and add them in as and when you need them (if I can land punches on my opponents face all day when he is fully resisting then poking him in the eye shouldn’t be too hard should it? If I can mount and ground and pound an opponent in a sports context how hard is it to mount and rip his throat out?) or to spend a lot of time simulating those strikes and then hoping to be able to use them in a fight? I suppose how you answer this question says a lot about how you personally approach fighting.

A second question is how important is all the dirty tactic and street stuff to you in regard to your overall strategy? is it the reason you train and the reason you dislike the sports stuff because you feel on the street things are different? If so then my question is when were you last in a serious street fight, not a drunken pub brawl but a real life and death fight? Was it a month ago, 6 months a year or longer? If you have been training for over a decade and really concentrating on the street and tactics for that and only had 1 serious fight in that time doesn’t that make you think about your reasons for training? (a general question not aimed at anyone in particular)

Me personally I don’t mind not training the dirty stuff that much and sparring within agreed rules because its been years since I was in a street fight, and that’s despite going to university in the city Geoff Thompson made famous, and despite attending a kung fu school in a part of Birmingham even the police didn’t like walking in, its just not that big an issue for me. I know what I do works against an opponent trying to hurt me and resist me fully, I know guys who have also made it work on the street, and I enjoy training and its fun, and to be honest if it was the street I was really worried about I’d train awareness and weapons above empty hand.

The intent is no different in sports training than any other training, when I hit the pads etc I am looking to destroy them like I would my opponent, when I am sparring I am looking to finish him as quickly as possible within the agreed rules, its just this doesn’t happen very often in reality with a resisting opponent.

People also argue that sports training is unrealistic because you start facing your opponent with your hands up etc, whilst this is the case in competition it is simply not the case in actual training: You often start drills and sparring from disadvantaged positions just as you would do on the street: Under mount, under knee on stomach, on your back against a standing opponent, pinned up against a cage wall, when the opponent is fully in on a double leg or has the Thai clinch fully locked in and so on and so on.

About the only thing I feel sports training lacks is awareness and avoidance training, but to be honest I never really saw this in TCMA, there was very little fence work to keep safe distance, little use verbal cues to misdirect and set up strikes, how to avoid certain places and people etc

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[QUOTE=Frost;1053488]are you referring to actually competing or the way sports guys train with emphasis on sparring under agreed rules with gross motor movements and using progressive resistance? If its the latter then sports fighting can cover virtually anything you want: from stand up to clinch and ground, with and without weapons and with more than 1 opponent if you wish, you can allow so called dirty tactics or not and the level or protection used is totally up to you [/QUOTE]

I’m referring to the training, and the focus on ring skills, and the ‘bad’ side would be to limit your training and focus on only what works in the ring.

The work-around, as you pointed out, is to change up the type of sparring, to include other scenarios.

[QUOTE=Frost;1053488]If you mean guys who actually compete then its different you have to play by the agreed rules and when training for a comp you do train towards those rules so in that sense you do not train everything, in the fact you dont use certain hand formations or attack illegal areas (your dirty tactics) BUT even so they still push the rules to the limit and use as many dirty tactics as you can get away with, head butts in the clinch, neck cranks if the refs not looking, chin in the eye etc so its not as if sports guys have a moral dislike to them, its just they know that there are rules and you can only get away with so much [/QUOTE]

If you are training to compete, then that is your objective, and a good one at that, but sooner or later, you have to come back for the traditional skills, or lose/sacrifice/discard them. I’m addressing specifically TCMA people who don’t want to lose/sacrifice/discard their TCMA skills.

[QUOTE=Frost;1053488]So comparing the above to chi sao or pushing hands I feel is wrong: chi sao and pushing hands concentrate on one small area of fighting I agree, they teach close range fighting skills and as such concentrate on only one area of combat, sports training as I have pointed out above can cover everything.[/QUOTE]

Yes, can cover everything. And should, but often doesn’t. But that’s not really the point, the point is that an ‘exercise’ becomes the objective, not a stepping stone. Its obviously a lot more demanding and hardcore than chi sau and push hands, fair enough.

[QUOTE=Frost;1053488]Now if you are just referring to grappling/rolling then that is more like chi sao etc in that it only covers a small part of fighting, but then I dont know any pure grapplers who think what they are doing is fighting or will really allow them to defend themselves in the street, they know grappling might help but its not the whole game[/QUOTE]

Na, just really talking about training TCMA, and keeping the good juice, not losing it.

[QUOTE=Frost;1053488]The underlying question remains what is the best way to train for the street and to train those dirty tactics and techniques you cant spar with? [/QUOTE]

Amen brother, that’s what I’m looking for. So far my thinking is to train as similar to actual fighting as possible, and then to break down and approximate with the missing pieces. This is all supported with conditioning, technique training, pad training and 2 man exercises.

[QUOTE=Frost;1053488]To develop a sound sports based delivery system first and add them in as and when you need them (if I can land punches on my opponents face all day when he is fully resisting then poking him in the eye shouldnt be too hard should it?

If I can mount and ground and pound an opponent in a sports context how hard is it to mount and rip his throat out?) or to spend a lot of time simulating those strikes and then hoping to be able to use them in a fight?

I suppose how you answer this question says a lot about how you personally approach fighting.[/QUOTE]

Developing a sound sport based foundation and adding on is just what I recommend. The real issue is how long to stay in that stage. Both the examples you mentioned, punching in the head, eye, mount and pound, work a charm.

Maybe I find this topic so interesting because Pak Mei doesn’t apply to sport as well as Ju Jitsu or even CLF and other long arm styles, and I’m looking for insight.

I can ‘fight’ with two personalities, sport and PM. It took me too long to learn how to use the PM and overcome my ‘habits’, and once I did, the ride got faster and faster. I’m trying to figure out how to manage it better, instead of just letting it happen.

[QUOTE=Frost;1053488]
A second question is how important is all the dirty tactic and street stuff to you in regard to your overall strategy? is it the reason you train and the reason you dislike the sports stuff because you feel on the street things are different? If so then my question is when were you last in a serious street fight, not a drunken pub brawl but a real life and death fight?

Was it a month ago, 6 months a year or longer? If you have been training for over a decade and really concentrating on the street and tactics for that and only had 1 serious fight in that time doesnt that make you think about your reasons for training? (a general question not aimed at anyone in particular)
[/QUOTE]

Everything I have is probably dirty by most people’s book. I don’t dislike the sport stuff, that’s the problem, I enjoy it, but it wasn’t until I took it off the front burner that my real Pak Mei started to develop, and then it still took years. Its not about street v sport, its about the ability to execute my sh1t as it should be done in a live, resisting environment.

My last brawl was too long ago to mean anything about me now, and my hardest fights have been sport. But, I can tell you stories time and time again of how I’ve backed down guys that thought they were hard men and wanted to prove it. In the last 20 years all my ‘fights’ have been one hit affairs. He hits me and runs away, or I hit him and he runs away.

I’m just an old donkey anyway, I’m really focused on training up my little brothers, and giving them the best I can.

And, regardless, I don’t train just to fight, never have.

[QUOTE=Frost;1053488]Me personally I dont mind not training the dirty stuff that much and sparring within agreed rules because its been years since I was in a street fight, and thats despite going to university in the city Geoff Thompson made famous, and despite attending a kung fu school in a part of Birmingham even the police didnt like walking in, its just not that big an issue for me. I know what I do works against an opponent trying to hurt me and resist me fully, I know guys who have also made it work on the street, and I enjoy training and its fun, and to be honest if it was the street I was really worried about Id train awareness and weapons above empty hand.

The intent is no different in sports training than any other training, when I hit the pads etc I am looking to destroy them like I would my opponent, when I am sparring I am looking to finish him as quickly as possible within the agreed rules, its just this doesnt happen very often in reality with a resisting opponent.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the intent, aggression, ring-craft, all critical. Its just the bloody techs. That’s why BJJ is so strong, they can train their tech right up to the little pop before the joint goes and its the ducks guts. How can I find that kind of reality training for my style, that’s the big question. Without throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[QUOTE=Frost;1053488]People also argue that sports training is unrealistic because you start facing your opponent with your hands up etc, whilst this is the case in competition it is simply not the case in actual training: You often start drills and sparring from disadvantaged positions just as you would do on the street: Under mount, under knee on stomach, on your back against a standing opponent, pinned up against a cage wall, when the opponent is fully in on a double leg or has the Thai clinch fully locked in and so on and so on.

About the only thing I feel sports training lacks is awareness and avoidance training, but to be honest I never really saw this in TCMA, there was very little fence work to keep safe distance, little use verbal cues to misdirect and set up strikes, how to avoid certain places and people etc[/QUOTE]

I know this applies to my style more as compared to others, and I don’t expect everybody to see my issue in the same light. Thanks for the insight.

What I’m after is a way to train my techs with reasonable proximity to the real thing with a resisting live opponent, and sport style training for us, has to really be managed heavily to keep the student on track. Its almost like one day, ‘click’ the light goes on, and they get it, and then they are off and running.

Personally, I’m very big on strategy, and that involves a lot of what you call avoidance and awareness - all part of the ‘pre game’ festivities.

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there’s nothing wrong with sport fighting.

from my own opinion, my kung fu has taught me to have defense against unpredicted attacks such as kidnapping, mugging, sexual assault. it’s about living in a mindset of awareness on the street - defense.

sport fighting inherently teaches awareness of situations, however it’s in situations where both parties start from the same point - they both know there will be a fight - thus attacks are premeditated to a certain extent so it’s based in offense.

either on can get you where you want to go, if you keep on your path and are honest with your personal limitations.

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“Yes, the intent, aggression, ring-craft, all critical. Its just the bloody techs. That’s why BJJ is so strong, they can train their tech right up to the little pop before the joint goes and its the ducks guts. How can I find that kind of reality training for my style, that’s the big question. Without throwing the baby out with the bath water.”

I think it depends on what you want to focus on as your main weapon set.

Many TCMA emphasise a range of striking techniques as main weapons and entries and what I’ve found is that training with gear, as in body armour and full face protection is more beneficial for anatagonistic combative training of those techniques.

This allows you to develop more accurate placement of your hand weapons and more fully appreciate the benefits / limitations of traditional techniques.

Dave

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The "we don’t have rules, but sports do, so we can practice our too deadly without rules techniques (although only in a pretend manner), is the exact same type of thinking that causes the “no rules” crowd to get handily beaten every time they have been tested against the “rules” crowd for the last 150 years since Judo was invented precisely to prove how stupid that mindset is.

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[QUOTE=meltdawn;1053881]there’s nothing wrong with sport fighting.

from my own opinion, my kung fu has taught me to have defense against unpredicted attacks such as kidnapping, mugging, sexual assault. it’s about living in a mindset of awareness on the street - defense.

sport fighting inherently teaches awareness of situations, however it’s in situations where both parties start from the same point - they both know there will be a fight - thus attacks are premeditated to a certain extent so it’s based in offense.

either on can get you where you want to go, if you keep on your path and are honest with your personal limitations.[/QUOTE]

Which should make sport fighting all the more easier for you.

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[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1053527]

What I’m after is a way to train my techs with reasonable proximity to the real thing with a resisting live opponent, and sport style training for us, has to really be managed heavily to keep the student on track. Its almost like one day, ‘click’ the light goes on, and they get it, and then they are off and running. [/QUOTE]

Tell me what your techniques are and I can tell you a way to train them in the sport model that will make them significantly more effective.

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[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1053527]I’m referring to the training, and the focus on ring skills, and the ‘bad’ side would be to limit your training and focus on only what works in the ring.[/QUOTE]

Training to focus just on ring skills with the sport model will develop significantly will more ability than will training in just techniques that are “too dangerous” to practice full force.

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[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1053391]
Sports fighting is just that though. Martial Art fighting on a professional level. just like foot ball…baseball…basket ball. Some people like to play as a past time and are pretty good at it doing so over time. being “PROFESSIONAL” is another LEVEL of the game meant for those who can afford to spend their lives training all day. [/QUOTE]

Plenty of people hold down day jobs and compete at the recreational level in most sports.

The only thing i think is wrong with sports fighting is RULES.

And where and how, exactly, are you training without RULES?

This looks to be pretty rules based to me- much more than any MMA match you are going to see:

http://hlk415.webs.com/apps/videos/videos/show/9325838-hung-loong-kwoon-sparring