What makes Kung fu, Kung Fu

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
41

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1158323]

Many don’t like his politics, his overt Taiwan favouring and his veiled racism towards non-chinese in that book.

I’ve read it. I respect his Kung Fu skills.
I look at it (SPR book) through somewhat cynical eyes.
[/QUOTE]

i went over the book, and i just don’t see any pushing of political agenda, overt Taiwan favoring or veiled racism toward non-chinese…

he did note his difficulty in bridging cultural barriers when he taught in the states.

there was a chapter where he said he was impressed with the other kung fu instructors in San Francisco, though he didn’t care for some people’s obsession with titles.

42

I like the simple definition of Kung Fu as:

The human body contains 3 separate springs. Without Kung Fu training, those 3 springs will be compressed and released independently. With Kung Fu training, you can make all 3 springs to be compressed and released at the same time.

43

Power from ground, to foot, to ankle, to knee, to hip, to waist, to rib, to shoulder, to elbow, to wrist, to finger… body like a whip, or ocean wave crashing = Kung Fu

44

Power from ground, to foot, to ankle, to knee, to hip, to waist, to rib, to shoulder, to elbow, to wrist, to finger… body like a whip, or ocean wave crashing = Kung Fu

yeah maybe for those of us with two GOOD shoulders.

45

So if a martial art came out of China that “looked like karate,” would it still be kung fu?

46

[QUOTE=IronFist;1159440]So if a martial art came out of China that “looked like karate,” would it still be kung fu?[/QUOTE]

You mean CLF?
:smiley:

47

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1159444]You mean CLF?
:D[/QUOTE]

I would’ve at least gone with Ngor Chor

48

Personally I consider San Shou to be Kung Fu, although it has elements of western boxing and greco roman wrestling that are not Chinese based arts. Of course, it also has Shuai Jiao and other TCMA techniques.

It is generally recognized as the full contact venue for Kung Fu practioners. The point is that what is considered Kung Fu is really subjective and kind of a dead horse to argue over, especially from the LARPing side.

49

Everything is subjective. :slight_smile:

Kung Fu is clear. I think people want it to be something less or more than what they currently project upon it.

San shou is a limb of kung fu and not a totality of it.
Mostly it was taken from judo and muay thai though and later things were adapted and changed etc.

san shou isn’t the same everywhere you go either. some place have elbows and knees, others don’t some places encourage the slam throws and others want it to be more rolling throws.

San shou is the new sportified kickboxing version that was made so people could compete with a ruleset that was fair and could be weight based. It’s pretty new in that regards. San Shou did not replace Lei Tai at all.

San Da used to be free style fighting within a system or style that students would use to test their progress. free strikes = san da and san shou=free style/hands.

These terms were specific to a training modality that got wrapped into being the sportive kickboxing version of chinese martial arts.

It’s all good, but Kung Fu is a total effort of the human being.

Not unlike how Yoga these days is practiced with only 1 or 2 limbs of it and the rest is left behind. probably because of cultural gap and lack of understanding from one culture to another in regards to what those limbs are and how to practice them in daily living.

san shou is kickboxing sport with chinese martial arts as the base.

50

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1159456]Mostly it was taken from judo and muay thai though and later things were adapted and changed etc.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, they didn’t start bringing in the Thais until pretty late in san shou’s development.
According to the head coach of the US Sanshou team, who has prior experience fighting pro Sanda in China; they didn’t hire any Thai coaches till the late 90s.
Sanshou’s outside influences for punching & kicking came from TKD & Sambo first and foremost.
They have fundamentally different mechanics than muay thai for punches & kicks; and they’ve always had those differences.

51

[QUOTE=Pork Chop;1159457]Actually, they didn’t start bringing in the Thais until pretty late in san shou’s development.
According to the head coach of the US Sanshou team, who has prior experience fighting pro Sanda in China; they didn’t hire any Thai coaches till the late 90s.
Sanshou’s outside influences for punching & kicking came from TKD & Sambo first and foremost.
They have fundamentally different mechanics than muay thai for punches & kicks; and they’ve always had those differences.[/QUOTE]

It’s been 20 years or so since san shou made the scene so to speak and it’s been less than 10 that it’s gotten to where it is now.

The last stuff I saw of it in dev was in the mid and late 90’s and it was littered with Muay Thai training and techniques.

I agree, TKD was pretty big in bringing it about in the early years to separate it cleanly from wushu demonstration.

I wasn’t aware of a sambo connection. That’s typically eastern euro/Russian style stuff. That must have been later than earlier.

It’s on it’s own now, but it really is a relatively new invention as far as sport martial arts go. It was a way for the Chinese martial arts to throwdown as well.

Cool about the sambo. I wasn’t aware of it.

52

I’m not sure what is the current context of sanshou, but between '90 and ‘92/‘93 the NACMAF tournaments were running sanshou divisions and the majority of contestants were from kung fu schools that at the time did not cross train in muay thai or judo or whatever. The various schools trained in conventional jabs, hooks, uppercuts, push, side, and roundhouse kicks, and throws, contoured a bit to the stylistics of what system they were learning or at least toward the sifus’ bias’.

Shawn Liu was the head coach, but to be honest everyone at the time took his word of fight experience with rolly eyes. But other than some fighters that either came from overseas or were from schools that focused only on fighting, I never saw anything that looked like an over influence of muay thai, tae kwan do or judo.

53

now that I think of it. I’m not sure Shawn Liu was the head coach at that time. He may hav been, but It may have been someone else like sifu John Tsai, or Sifu Mike Barry, or Sifu Tai Yim, or Sifu Goh.

54

[QUOTE=brothernumber9;1159502]I’m not sure what is the current context of sanshou, but between '90 and ‘92/‘93 the NACMAF tournaments were running sanshou divisions and the majority of contestants were from kung fu schools that at the time did not cross train in muay thai or judo or whatever. The various schools trained in conventional jabs, hooks, uppercuts, push, side, and roundhouse kicks, and throws, contoured a bit to the stylistics of what system they were learning or at least toward the sifus’ bias’.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Because virtually every club had san da / san shou on the course. It was essentially how people sparred with their kung fu. Free style use of the style they were learning.

I think the differences in how Kung Fu schools focused is what forced the established kickboxing connection. Chinese Martial Arts were simply too diverse and there is way to much politics about martial arts in it’s own circles and to the detriment of Chinese martial arts overall.

Because of the huge differences and arguments, the only way to go was to force a rule set and stick to it. A lot of older guys or particularly egotistical guys got huffy and either got out or went big guns with it and got rid of all the rest often kung fu training in favour of sport kickboxing with throws that were for the most part taken from other arts and were no longer really Chinese martial arts.

Then the good part happened! Kung Fu was suddenly useless and only sport fighting was deemed worthy!

lol, bloody simple minds are abundant. :rolleyes:

55

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1159499]I wasn’t aware of a sambo connection. That’s typically eastern euro/Russian style stuff. That must have been later than earlier.
[/QUOTE]

Actually the earliest military sanshou training materials are somewhat close to the combat sambo that the soviet military was using when both were created in the 1920s.
Sanshou competition rules were drafted in 1982.
There wasn’t much muay thai influence prior to 95. Cung Le was a big name by 1994.
The big san shou vs muay thai bouts didn’t kick off till about 2000.
You can look at chinese sanshou training videos available through martialartsmart.com and see for yourself that the techniques are not Thai in flavor.

56

What makes kung fu kung fu?

It is you. You make the journey, so you make kung fu kung fu.

In the 1980s, I listened to 'Without you" from air supply.

In the 1990s, I listened to “Without you” from Mariah Carey.

She listened to the song when she was a kid. She sang it so many times. She put her emotions in the song. She made the song her own.

If you learn something for so long, you put your time in practicing it so many times. You make it your own.

It is your kung fu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hat1Hc9SNwE&feature=youtu.be

:cool:

57

[QUOTE=Pork Chop;1159535]Actually the earliest military sanshou training materials are somewhat close to the combat sambo that the soviet military was using when both were created in the 1920s.
Sanshou competition rules were drafted in 1982.
There wasn’t much muay thai influence prior to 95. Cung Le was a big name by 1994.
The big san shou vs muay thai bouts didn’t kick off till about 2000.
You can look at chinese sanshou training videos available through martialartsmart.com and see for yourself that the techniques are not Thai in flavor.[/QUOTE]

Pork Chop’s on the money.

58

The kool uniforms,

yep it’s the uniforms for sure:D

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1158225]Last weekend I had some friends over and family.
My brother-in-law who is into MMA ( watching not training) and a freind were debating MA and asked me what is the difference between the various styles and I gave a quick and politically correct summary.
But then the BIL asked what makes kung fu, kung fu?
I explained some of the technical uniqueness of kung fu, comapred the forms with karate and TKD but as I was doing so I realized that is NOT what makes kung fu, kung fu.
Many other systems have forms like kung fu, many other systems share the techniques, many others share the principles and many others share the “look and feel” of kung fu.
So I contemplated my navel ( as I do in situations like this) and realized that, for ME, what makes kung fu, kung fu is:
The Gungs.

And you?[/QUOTE]

59

[QUOTE=Lokhopkuen;1159813]The kool uniforms,

yep it’s the uniforms for sure:D
[/QUOTE]

Darnit man - pics like these are making it very hard for me (pun intended) to meet my personal lenten challenge of no internet porn. DAY 2

60

Funny David I had never heard of the term San Da until I read it in a KF Mag and I learned with all Chinese LOL.

I’ll get serious for a beat; What makes Kung Fu, KUNG FU? I was taught (via example) that It’s the depth of thought and applied practice regarding the teaching of martial based self cultivation. Traditional Kung Fu is about having a plan that encompasses the long view with considerations of the bigger picture.

Most practitioners these days (IMHO) only think in terms of the individual’s skill sets metered on some sort of bad a ss factoring self assessments. The stuff I read here and what some of you think is important is sometimes sad and scary in the same breath:p
Loyalty, honor, duty to many are by-gone concepts (?) and most seeker/ practitioners flitter from teacher to teacher adding and discarding from “the menu” as if shopping a department store for the latest fashionable martial technique. Many after making their selections have the audacity to CREATE THEIR OWN STYLES… to each his own :rolleyes:

Traditional kung fu (in our association) is about the group collective as family extended over and through generations with clear definition of mission built on a series of values and principles. In my teacher’s approach (which I strictly adhere to as student/teacher for over 30 years);
We;
Promote and advance the martial arts as a means for individuals to achieve self-betterment, self-discovery, and self-discipline via our system of martial cultivations.

We teach our art to any one regardless of age, sex, race, color, or nationality who is willing to learn and have no motives to defame the art, disrupt the class or use the art for unethical and/or illegal purposes. We spread the teachings of the art via the most efficient and economic means thereby reaching as many willing students as possible. We present the martial arts in all aspects. i.e., as means for self-defense, sport, physical training, philosophy, entertainment, performance, science, health, healing, discipline, meditation, mental development, confidence building, sportsmanship, art, history, culture, etc.& cultivate the martial arts as a vehicle for developing friendship, teamwork, communications and cooperation, and not as means for dominance, suppression, control and undue influence over others.

We;
Present the art in its most realistic form refraining from trickery, myths, deceptions, and supernatural claims.
We;
Produce students that appreciate and understand the martial arts but not necessarily be experts or champions.
We;
Develop successors who can carry the responsibility of continuing and expanding the missions and principles of the class by proper teaching of the art and most important of all, the philosophy and ethics.

We;
Continue to better our style of martial arts via the processes of actual practice and applications of the teachings leading to re-evaluation, discovery, and understanding.

My teacher’s student base extend over 4 generations:D

Our older Aunts and Uncles still hang around and practice Tai Chi, deep breath works and meditate on the subtleties of the double edged straight sword. A few old die hards (such as myself) still struggle through the long, exhausting yet dynamically energizing Northern Shaolim practice forms. Our teens and twenty somethings hang outside or in the back room sparring and wrestling, figuring out how its applied, working out an understanding of the rules of engagement, distance, ranges, timing, intention, coming to the senior aunts and uncles picking our brains, testing our skills! Our children practice the basic then go play outside while we do our sets. Every once in a while we have to pause swinging a broadsword, horse cutter, Qwan Dao as a gaggle of little monkeys dash across the floor and through our ranks as we just pause and smile growling at them to be careful. Our children seem stronger, smarter and faster than the average youngling (?) I’m sure this is simply a doting parental bias;)

Kung Fu is about family it’s about LIFE! The fact our system of martial cultivations is time proven to be an effective and broad based pool of martial arts knowledge, deserves our best efforts to continue to enhance and develop its values to benefit others in the future. Our Kung Fu Association has successfully developed a group of dedicated and capable individuals as instructors who can carry the teachings and leanings forward to the future.

In the coming years, our hope is for these individuals to further spread the art following the Mission, Value, and Principles set down for the Association. Personally I have gone through about 2 generations of students in our martial family and already working on the third. I intend to continue spending more time teaching to young children as long as I have the energy to do so. I believe the seeds have to be planted when they are young. Also, I will continue my personal pursuit for excellence in the Martial Arts as a way of life and hope to lead the developed and key exponents my extended Association to reach new heights in their martial arts endeavors.

I ask readers here to please forgive my half formed, ill connected thoughts along with my innate inability to adequately express myself.

Submitted Sincerely :smiley:

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1159516]Agreed. Because virtually every club had san da / san shou on the course. It was essentially how people sparred with their kung fu. Free style use of the style they were learning.

I think the differences in how Kung Fu schools focused is what forced the established kickboxing connection. Chinese Martial Arts were simply too diverse and there is way to much politics about martial arts in it’s own circles and to the detriment of Chinese martial arts overall.

Because of the huge differences and arguments, the only way to go was to force a rule set and stick to it. A lot of older guys or particularly egotistical guys got huffy and either got out or went big guns with it and got rid of all the rest often kung fu training in favour of sport kickboxing with throws that were for the most part taken from other arts and were no longer really Chinese martial arts.

Then the good part happened! Kung Fu was suddenly useless and only sport fighting was deemed worthy!

lol, bloody simple minds are abundant. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]