[QUOTE=dirtyrat;1158329]really? i didn’t get any of that ‘veiled racism’ when i read it. could you point out some passages while i try to dig that book out of my closet.[/QUOTE]
yep I can. But I don’t have the book with me at the moment.
I’ll peek and shoot some selections that are suspect in spirit.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1158331]yep I can. But I don’t have the book with me at the moment.
I’ll peek and shoot some selections that are suspect in spirit.[/QUOTE]
much appreciated! always good to get new perspective on things.
I think what makes KungFu so ‘Kung Fu’ is the way it is so interlinked with the rest of chinese culture.
Talk about 5 element theory, qi gong, chinese medicine, chinese calligeraphy, all contain the same concepts in kung fu.
The 5 elements work in kung fu, the direction of calligraphic strokes work in martial arts, the theory of chinese medicine works in kung fu, etc etc. All the theory and strategy from Sun Tzu on all seem to be in agreement in kung fu and all are applied.
I know to some extent this is true for other cultures and their martial arts but it does profoundly so in kung fu. This is what gives Kung fu its flavour.
Using the terminology correctly all ‘Great Achievement of Skill’ is Kung Fu (Gong Fu).
I think that what makes “Kung Fu” - KUNG FU is the theorys and principles. Many systems have that same or similar techniques, but in the end… How you set them up, How you apply them, what types of energy or jing you use etc.
Fighting is fighting no matter where you go. How you get there makes the deifference.
ginosifu
I was about to say all the cultural references in it (from phylosophy to medicine) but actually it wouldn’t be correct as also Indian martial arts do share the same characteristic so I’ll have to go with Sanjuro and Ten Tiger on the different gong meant at developping different jing.
Pretty cool things if you ask me:D
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1158323]I wouldn’t be so sure of that.
Also, I wouldn’t be so sure that everyone into Kung Fu takes Adam’s words as gospel.
Many don’t like his politics, his overt Taiwan favouring and his veiled racism towards non-chinese in that book.
I’ve read it. I respect his Kung Fu skills.
I look at it (SPR book) through somewhat cynical eyes.
No one man has the low down on Kung Fu.
But a bunch of us together do! Even the silly stuff![/QUOTE]
I never sensed anything racist in Hsu’s writings, although I am aware that in regards to kung fu, he is very sino-centric, i.e., it must be done in just such a way; no non-Chinese exercises or influences can be permitted, or else one’s kung fu becomes ‘polluted,’ etc. And I don’t see any particular Taiwan favoring, other than the fact he grew up/learned his kung fu there, so obviously his biggest influences come from there.
I do agree that no one man can lay claim to knowing it all about kung fu, including Adam Hsu. I also respect him as a practitioner, but I do not agree with everything he says.
FWIW, he’s come out with another book in recent years, Lone Sword Against the Cold, Cold Sky. He writes a lot more about his travels/experiences in mainland China.
The ability to take something, and through hard work, make it work for that person.
Kung Fu is just a phrase used to indicate/mean different things at different times according to changing contexts. As with all contrived indicators (made up words), it is both meaningless and meaningful according to the purpose of the one using it and the inclination of the person hearing/reading it, which are often two different meanings.
It would be beneficial to not even use the term at all!
[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1158294]Shuai Jiao predates all Kung fu styles to the point where every system can claim chin na and throwing contained in its forms.[/QUOTE]
Just for general information, “go-ti” predates Shuai Jiao!
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1158401]I never sensed anything racist in Hsu’s writings, although I am aware that in regards to kung fu, he is very sino-centric, i.e., it must be done in just such a way; no non-Chinese exercises or influences can be permitted, or else one’s kung fu becomes ‘polluted,’ etc. And I don’t see any particular Taiwan favoring, other than the fact he grew up/learned his kung fu there, so obviously his biggest influences come from there.
I do agree that no one man can lay claim to knowing it all about kung fu, including Adam Hsu. I also respect him as a practitioner, but I do not agree with everything he says.
FWIW, he’s come out with another book in recent years, Lone Sword Against the Cold, Cold Sky. He writes a lot more about his travels/experiences in mainland China.[/QUOTE]
I’d like to add that, in my observation, Adam Hsu is extremely passionate about kung fu and wants to see it preserved for future generations. That’s why he feels the various systems need to be kept ‘pure.’ For example, he has said (I’m not sure if this was in his first book, second book, or both) that if you punch, pull back and punch again, it isn’t kung fu, because you did not work off that initial contact into a second or third continuous technique. If you kick above the waist during sparring or competition, it isn’t kung fu. Etc., etc. The issue for me is, what works for me in a given situation? Everything doesn’t work the way it’s ‘supposed to’ every time. Kung fu requires a flexible mindset, even if that means stepping outside of a ‘pure style characteristic’ mindset, IMO.
I think he makes valid points, and I think I see where he’s coming from. But I must disagree with some of his thoughts as well. Nothing can exist or grow in a vacuum. I can pretty much guarantee that the kung fu styles he learned were not the same (when he learned them) as they were decades earlier. Everything must evolve, or it will die or become outdated. Now, if you’re preserving it as a strictly cultural art form, then it’s fine. If you want it to remain combat-relevant in modern times, then it must grow and learn to deal with the new circumstances/environment.
But to each his/her own. Whether I agree or disagree with his views, I respect Adam Hsu for his dedication and skills. It isn’t easy dedicating one’s whole life to spreading kung fu, however way you choose to see it.
just to be clear, i never said Adam Hsu’s word should be taken as “gospel”. i do believe that he is generally well-respected. if i recall correctly there were members on this forum that made his book required reading for their students. i think if you do a search on this forum, you’ll find threads that generally speaks favorably about him (and on this forum, that is something!! ;).
and yes, its always good policy to take things with a grain of salt, but i have found the things he talks about in his book to be close to what i have experienced in kung fu.
What makes kung fu…Kung Fu?
My sifu always reminded me that you can tell the quality of one’s gung fu by the age he passes away at.
Since Gung Fu is an individual endeavor, what makes gung fu …gung fu is the INDIVIDUAL and the hard work he puts into it. Sure, gung fu mean great skill developed through hard work over time. But, gung fu isn’t just about martial arts. Gung Fu is SKILL any way you look at it. Gung Fu can be found in any art, any sport, and THING an individual who puts in the time and effort to be good at what he or she does.
Long ago, i heard a Chinese Chef being called “SIFU” and i asked my sifu “is he a martial artist?” My sifu informed me that yes a CHEF, an athlete, a painter, or even a dancer or even a tattoo artist who is at the top of their game can be called Sifu and said to have good gung fu …meaning skill.
So, on the most important level, what makes gung fu …gung fu is HARD WORK by the INDIVIDUAL.
Where i believe a problem lies is when people try to imitate the CHINA side of chinese martial arts. Some will try to “BECOME” chinese just to be accepted by the Chinese. Others are intoxicated by the vapors of gung fu and completely misconstrue the art and get all esoteric and mystical. THAT is not gung fu. Chi is not exclusively “GUNG FU” because Chi can be built up by any athlete not related to gung fu.
So whether you’re interested in weapons, forms, lion dancing, or fighting, if you don’t put in the work you will never have good gung fu.
JUST MY OPINION.
I’m interested in Chinese history. Modern Chinese culture, not so much.
But, then again, I am interested in history in general. This was just something new and fresh.
It seems there is some little drift from what I think (please correct me if I’m wrong) Ronin meant with the opening of this thread. I guess he was referring more to the arsenal and technical aspect of the art rather then the general meaning of Gongfu.
What makes Kung-Fu, Kung-Fu?..The spelling.
No_Know
Oh_No !!!
kung fu is a journey and the road map is defined by you.
I like to add 2 things. Many good points already been posted.
Without practicing or developing jin or gong, your moves or techniques may not work.
For example, in tong bei, we stress the whipping power. we start with shaking wrist, rotating elbow, and the shoulder, – we also practice stepping on toes and heels or deng and ta.
Eventually, we practice to develop whole body whipping power.
It starts with feet by stepping into the ground, the recoil power from ground then transferred all the way up, stored in your shoulder and then expressed in your fingers or palm.
It takes time and stages of diligent practice to get there.
They are bread and butter. They are bricks and foundation to build things on.
From day one to day whenever, we still practice basics daily.
For example, in ba ji, we have all the basic moves in small frame.
We then have some tactics and strategy and derivatives from small frame into large frame. (intermediate level)
In advance level, we actually practice specialized moves in the lian huan routine.
In short, the advance is still from the basic moves but just more focused to a special theme or apps.
Therefore, we take times (kung fu) to develop the skills and jin (kung/gong).
We practice the basics (kung/gong) to a proficient level.
We learn the tactics and strategy and apps well.
jing qi shen
shou yan shenfa bu
gong ma pu xu xie
san jie he (I hear all sorts of variants of this principle. Alternatively liu he; san wai + san nei he. Or san duan; shang zhong xia etc. The idea of whole body integration or coordination)
subtlety
I think, amongst other things, there’s a lot more free will and mindfulness required to study Kung Fu, “Making it your own.” There is more plurality an subtlety in the techniques and training than regimented and catalogued arts - and you have to figure it out yourself.
The aforementioned “Road map is not the same as a destination.”
Obviously, the folks that think collecting forms is the same as learning ‘kung fu’ are in real danger of missing the point entirely.
Kung Fu is about how many forms you know and how sweet you look while performing them!!!
chinese people