All you probably need to do so that you can experience this is to start a fight team that appears on local mma, muy thai, or smoker cards.
I will guarantee you within six months you will have someone that comes up and says “Hey I just took this fight in 6 weeks. Will you train me?”
Now part of the problem on this thread here is the extreme unlikeliness this scenario would ever happen with WC teachers.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1287345]I think you are just scared to continue in the direction you were rambling, because you are aware that it is incoherent and that is risky if someone is around to call you on it. Unless you are makling a connection between wing chun and old western boxing then where are you going exactly?
If you can swallow your ego and genuinely want to talk about the weapons of wing chun then I am happy to do so from a position of experience.[/QUOTE]
Just a note that this “position of experience” has zero experience in doing what this thread is speaking of - training someone to be ready to fight in 3 months.
So perhaps it also might be in order for others to swallow their ego and be genuine about getting someone ready for a fight in 90 days as opposed to methods of taking 10 years.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1287586]I appreciate your views, but we seem to be going in circles here as you are asking questions I’ve already answered.
Let me ask you before I reply - have you taught WC at all? From what you’ve shared on this forum and others, you are a student currently yes? I am not asking in an attempt to belittle your views, but without a at least few years actually teaching, how can you really know what can be accomplished?
WC being a ‘traditional system’ doesn’t mean much to me in terms of how long it should take to learn. Again, there are different methods of training depending on the student and the goal. For example, I can teach someone to ‘fight’ with wing chun quite well without any pole, weapons or dummy forms work (but I do admit, san sau drills on the dummy help). This can also be done without really even getting into much past the SNT form and focusing more on san sau drilling (solo work, partner drilling, skill challenge and sparring). Will they be able to pass on the system with this method? Most surely not. And IMO this is part of why we see so many different version of WC today.
But with this type of focus, passing on the system isn’t the goal. Again, the goal is in developing a competent WC fighter. 3 months, sure, as I’ve already said several time, not enough time to COMPLETE this goal. But it is surely enough to start getting some decent base results and improved fight skill. (which BTW, you still have yet to answer - exactly how long DOES it take in your view?)
And if you don’t agree with me, that’s ok - your WC just might not be as efficient as mine! lol :D[/QUOTE]
To me san sau method ingrains body karma, and also can be used to deepen the effectiveness of our execution of technique. I think there is yin/yang with the system approach in this. Anyway just a few thoughts I’ve had on this lately - chat with you more on this topic in a couple weeks!
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1287969]Just a note that this “position of experience” has zero experience in doing what this thread is speaking of - training someone to be ready to fight in 3 months.
So perhaps it also might be in order for others to swallow their ego and be genuine about getting someone ready for a fight in 90 days as opposed to methods of taking 10 years.[/QUOTE]
I’m not arguing that you can train someone to function in a fight in 3 months. It wouldn’t be wing chun, that is all. I have a lot of experience in the methods of wing chun.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1288234]I’m not arguing that you can train someone to function in a fight in 3 months. It wouldn’t be wing chun, that is all. I have a lot of experience in the methods of wing chun.[/QUOTE]
Welcome back. Unless , I just missed posts you made in other forums.
It is meaningless for the most part. I believed it could be done. Others agreed and disagreed. I think it would have worked on the older point fighting scene too. Yes, you have to change the application. But I believe WC has enough ideas that it could have worked. Some may say only at a disadvantage. Well, some like the challenge. Others may see a way to exploit what was common and take advantage of those gaps with there WC.
Main point is, you have to adapt it to the environment. Sport also means, say bye bye to a lot of things that are illegal or will not work well against trained people especially if you have restrictions as to what one can do.
Guy, you made a post in the IP thread. About how you just want to be able to do WC for life. Not get busted up and all that stuff. Buddy, may have been among the greatest of posts ever. Nothing wrong with that. Fighting is not it is all cracked up to be. It is a game of EGO’S. I’m better than you stuff. Feels good to win. But it is fleeting. And in the end, most people forget but you and maybe the other guy.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1288234]I’m not arguing that you can train someone to function in a fight in 3 months. It wouldn’t be wing chun, that is all. I have a lot of experience in the methods of wing chun.[/QUOTE]
what does ‘a lot of experience in wing chun’ really mean?
You’ve been asked a few times what your TEACHING experience is but you never answered. It’s pretty clear here that you are still a student. So I will assume you don’t have any real teaching experience - which is perfectly fine btw! I ask because I find it hard to understand how can you claim to know what can/can’t be done, or what will or will-not ‘be wing chun’ if you’ve not had much or any teaching experience yourself.
FWIW, I feel I can teach someone ‘wing chun’ in one lesson! Sure, the skill level won’t really be there, and I’m not talking about the whole system or anything like that. But I can help them understand and some-what apply a simple concept easy enough in a few hours, and it will surely be 100% wing chun! 3 months, yeah skill sill be limited, but better be sure everything they learn will be ‘wing chun’ then too! To say otherwise is just silly and a bit ignorant IMO.
So to better understand you (and I’ve asked this before a few times) - exactly what timeframe DO you feel is acceptable for ‘learning wing chun’ and have it actually ‘be wing chun’? At what point does training become ‘wing chun’ in your vast experience? 
6 months? a year? 10 years?
My answer would be it’s ‘wing chun’ the moment they can apply the basic principles/concepts they’ve been taught.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1288258]what does ‘a lot of experience in wing chun’ really mean?
You’ve been asked a few times what your TEACHING experience is but you never answered.[/QUOTE]
I hadn’t noticed anyone asking me. I teach at the session where we do the non gloved sparring. I also learn from a teacher.
It’s pretty clear here that you are still a student. So I will assume you don’t have any real teaching experience - which is perfectly fine btw! I ask because I find it hard to understand how can you claim to know what can/can’t be done, or what will or will-not ‘be wing chun’ if you’ve not had much or any teaching experience yourself.
I do have teaching experience, so your assumption is mistaken
FWIW, I feel I can teach someone ‘wing chun’ in one lesson! Sure, the skill level won’t really be there, and I’m not talking about the whole system or anything like that. But I can help them understand and some-what apply a simple concept easy enough in a few hours, and it will surely be 100% wing chun! 3 months, yeah skill sill be limited, but better be sure everything they learn will be ‘wing chun’ then too! To say otherwise is just silly and a bit ignorant IMO.
I don’t think I ever said you can’t start teaching someone wing chun in 3 months. I agree that wing chun only takes a little while to explain and show. I think that anyne learning wing chun will be far from functional in 3 months.
So to better understand you (and I’ve asked this before a few times) - exactly what timeframe DO you feel is acceptable for ‘learning wing chun’ and have it actually ‘be wing chun’?
This is an individual thing- some people learn faster than others. Wing chun is quite a definite method though and it is impossible to progress far enough through it to be functional in 3 months. You could produce a person that used some elements of wing chun thinking in 3 months, but that would not be a clever way to approach a fight with 90 days to train.
At what point does training become ‘wing chun’ in your vast experience?
When the body is developed and functioning, some of the methods are second nature, and the principles are internalised. There is plenty more to learn after that, but it allows you to function with wing chun, not some approximation of it. Until then they are mostly just building these things. There is nothing more useless in a fight than a half trained wing chun person- better to have no training at all.
My answer would be it’s ‘wing chun’ the moment they can apply the basic principles/concepts they’ve been taught.
ok
[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1288238]Welcome back. Unless , I just missed posts you made in other forums.
It is meaningless for the most part. I believed it could be done. Others agreed and disagreed. I think it would have worked on the older point fighting scene too. Yes, you have to change the application. But I believe WC has enough ideas that it could have worked. Some may say only at a disadvantage. Well, some like the challenge. Others may see a way to exploit what was common and take advantage of those gaps with there WC.
Main point is, you have to adapt it to the environment. Sport also means, say bye bye to a lot of things that are illegal or will not work well against trained people especially if you have restrictions as to what one can do.
Guy, you made a post in the IP thread. About how you just want to be able to do WC for life. Not get busted up and all that stuff. Buddy, may have been among the greatest of posts ever. Nothing wrong with that. Fighting is not it is all cracked up to be. It is a game of EGO’S. I’m better than you stuff. Feels good to win. But it is fleeting. And in the end, most people forget but you and maybe the other guy.[/QUOTE]
Hi, I don’t post on other forums apart from odd one on martial talk, didn’t know there were any. There is stuff on facebook and youtube but I can’t be bothered.
Glad I made a post you liked. I can’t remember making it. Do you have a link?
[QUOTE=guy b.;1288260]Hi, I don’t post on other forums apart from odd one on martial talk, didn’t know there were any. There is stuff on facebook and youtube but I can’t be bothered.
Glad I made a post you liked. I can’t remember making it. Do you have a link?[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I should have wrote, sub-forum.
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?68968-Iron-Hand-Against-Grapplers/page7
Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
You know what’s funny? I have no stake in this game.
Who’s got two thumbs and ain’t going to be fighting anybody? Me
Heck, I’m content to be one of those forms guys from now until the rest of my life. What’s funny - I can’t recall an ultra competitive judo guy hitting old age and going without a limp or some other ailment. So how’s that for winning?
Nope, not for this guy - I plan on being one of those old bastids that can still move. I’m not sure that’s going to be the case for many of our ultra hardcore MMA friends.
I just keep arguing on this one 'cuz it’s been way too long since we’ve had a fresh 7 pager on the forum main page.
[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1288262]Sorry, I should have wrote, sub-forum.
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?68968-Iron-Hand-Against-Grapplers/page7[/QUOTE]
I don’t think I posted in that thread
[QUOTE=guy b.;1288264]I don’t think I posted in that thread[/QUOTE]
No, I jus t saw. It was MightyB. LOL. Now you can see how I drop and my mind add-s ****. ( dyslexia ) I saw B and filled in your name. I apologize. My mistake. Regardless, I do enjoy your posts.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1288259]I hadn’t noticed anyone asking me. I teach at the session where we do the non gloved sparring. I also learn from a teacher.
I do have teaching experience, so your assumption is mistaken
I don’t think I ever said you can’t start teaching someone wing chun in 3 months. I agree that wing chun only takes a little while to explain and show. I think that anyne learning wing chun will be far from functional in 3 months.
This is an individual thing- some people learn faster than others. Wing chun is quite a definite method though and it is impossible to progress far enough through it to be functional in 3 months. You could produce a person that used some elements of wing chun thinking in 3 months, but that would not be a clever way to approach a fight with 90 days to train.
When the body is developed and functioning, some of the methods are second nature, and the principles are internalised. There is plenty more to learn after that, but it allows you to function with wing chun, not some approximation of it. Until then they are mostly just building these things. There is nothing more useless in a fight than a half trained wing chun person- better to have no training at all.
ok[/QUOTE]
There’s a pattern forming here. You feel you are more than qualified to come tell everyone what won’t work, what won’t ‘be wing chun’ based on time spent training, etc. But you’re also clearly unwilling/unable to tell us all what IS an acceptable time-frame in your expert opinion, even when asked on multiple occasions. :rolleyes:
When people do this they shouldn’t be taken seriously and most likely talking out their a55. They also typically don’t want to share who they are, who they train with or who they train under. Another pattern? No need to reply, I’m no longer interested
Full contact
[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1286831]To train a guy with zero experience to enter a full contact feet and hands only competition. Drawing only from traditional WC as you were taught, how would you do it ? What would you focus on ? What would you drop ? Think about it because if you teach your guy **** that can not be used in 3 months, he is going to potentially get hurt. But call it amature and good reffing should anyone run into overwhelmed issues or looks like you are just outmatched and we end it to prevent serious injury. Paired up against a guy of similar time in say kick boxing. Or as below. A student with many years in.
When I was in California, I found an Isshin Ryu community. The teacher and student decided they knew what to do to enter a full contact kickboxing match. I was maybe 20 at the time and 2 years out of boxing. I offered to show the guy some boxing and ring work. He laughed and said he knew what he was doing. Went to Vegas for the fight. it was a pro fight and he never did anything but tag sparring. He got knocked out in the first round. In fact they had trouble bringing him back around. For a bit I was told they believed he was going to die. He ended up with brain damage. Thankfully not bad enough to cause disability. But that ended any nonsense he believed. Now, I probably could not have prevented that even if I showed him what little I knew but he was not ready in any way, shape or form and I KNEW THAT ! And he had 4 or more years in the art.[/QUOTE]
Yes 3 months is no problem if the person learning has the attributes of a fighter. You would just need to focus on footwork, punching, covering up and kicking. Lots of cardiovascular and bag work/pad work and sparring against kickboxers. Considering I have seen the majority of wing chun guys fall apart in full contact what’s the harm of 3 months practical training. I would not waste time on chi sau in that 3 month period. Peace
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1288291]There’s a pattern forming here. You feel you are more than qualified to come tell everyone what won’t work, what won’t ‘be wing chun’ based on time spent training, etc. But you’re also clearly unwilling/unable to tell us all what IS an acceptable time-frame in your expert opinion, even when asked on multiple occasions. :rolleyes:
When people do this they shouldn’t be taken seriously and most likely talking out their a55. They also typically don’t want to share who they are, who they train with or who they train under. Another pattern? No need to reply, I’m no longer interested[/QUOTE]
I’m happy to tell you, and indeed have done so. I don’t think that anyone is going to be fight competent using wing chun until they have done at least SNT, CK, Pole and MYJ, with associated drilling and testing. Certainly nobody can think of fighting without CK because because it introduces movement. Nobody can realistically think of fighting with wing chun until they have developed power and linkage via wall bag, poon sau, pole. Nobody can realistically think of fighting with wing chun until they have good timing and reflexes through chi sau and other drilling, bag and pad drills, sparring.
Wing chun is kung fu, not a weekend self defence course. Kung fu takes time and effort. As I have said before, it is better not to be trained or to quickly learn basic kickboxing than to half learn wing chun and expect it to work. IF 3 months is available then do not choose wing chun
[QUOTE=chaotic2k;1288304]Yes 3 months is no problem if the person learning has the attributes of a fighter. You would just need to focus on footwork, punching, covering up and kicking. Lots of cardiovascular and bag work/pad work and sparring against kickboxers. Considering I have seen the majority of wing chun guys fall apart in full contact what’s the harm of 3 months practical training. I would not waste time on chi sau in that 3 month period. Peace ;)[/QUOTE]
If you have a tough guy then the martial art is an extension of that. Wing chun struggles to hold its own in full combat because the traditional training is geared for wing chun vs wing chun.
Chi sau, forms are great for the art and getting a deeper insight but most wing chun guys use barely any of the chi sau stuff in full contact. So in my humble opinion after a good few years of training is it is very possible to teach someone to fight with wing chun without going through the traditional route. For the right person, 3 months is enough time to fight using a functional method of wing chun concepts.
[QUOTE=chaotic2k;1288306]If you have a tough guy then the martial art is an extension of that. Wing chun struggles to hold its own in full combat because the traditional training is geared for wing chun vs wing chun.
Chi sau, forms are great for the art and getting a deeper insight but most wing chun guys use barely any of the chi sau stuff in full contact. So in my humble opinion after a good few years of training is it is very possible to teach someone to fight with wing chun without going through the traditional route. For the right person, 3 months is enough time to fight using a functional method of wing chun concepts.[/QUOTE]
Without the traditional route, how can it even be wing chun?
What do you mean by “most wing chun guys use barely any of the chi sau stuff in full contact”?
[QUOTE=guy b.;1288309]Without the traditional route, how can it even be wing chun?
What do you mean by “most wing chun guys use barely any of the chi sau stuff in full contact”?[/QUOTE]
Hi Guy. Guess it’s more a case of how you view wing chun so please don’t think I’m saying your opinion is not valid but I’m guessing we may well have differences on our approach to wing chun…
If you look at the history of yip man’s wing chun family it’s clear to see a constant evolution in wing chun. It has been updated by many people, this validates it’s a progressive martial art rather than a traditional martial art. There is no dim mak, lion dance and medicine attached which you will find in alot of traditional CMA.
The reason wing chun has evolved is because it’s a concept based philosophy. Bruce Lee used the concepts of wing chun to create Jkd.
Now where we might differ. Wing chun can be used in a pool game, a football match, picking your nose. The concepts apply to many things. I can train like a Thai boxer and use wing chun, so can you
If you look on YouTube you will see countless wing chun guys losing all technical ability and ending up looking more like choy lee fut. I have been to full contact events and seen it with my own eyes. The wing chun guys who can apply there kung fu in kickboxing type rules have to be able to box with there wing chun.. Simples
Chi sau is great and I teach it to my students but it’s easy to forget that chi sau is in many ways a cooperative training method which alot wing chun guys achieve an amazing level of skill but time and time again we see very little chi sau techniques in actual combat. Look at cheung vs boztepe. Boztepe has beautiful chi sau but you see him wrestle cheung.
Barry lee who was WSL’s top foreign fighter was renowned for using just punches in real combat. Even WSL himself was reported by Duncan Leung to just use punches in most his fights. Show me the taan sau’s and qwan sau’s, laap sau’s?..
To use wing chun in the ring you need to train for the ring which is very possible since wing chun has some very good striking and I’m not talking endless chain punching. Hope I answered your questions Guy . Peace 
[QUOTE=chaotic2k;1288311]Hi Guy. Guess it’s more a case of how you view wing chun so please don’t think I’m saying your opinion is not valid but I’m guessing we may well have differences on our approach to wing chun…[/QUOTE]
Don’t worry, no danger of offending me. Say what you like
If you look at the history of yip man’s wing chun family it’s clear to see a constant evolution in wing chun. It has been updated by many people, this validates it’s a progressive martial art rather than a traditional martial art. There is no dim mak, lion dance and medicine attached which you will find in alot of traditional CMA.
The reason wing chun has evolved is because it’s a concept based philosophy. Bruce Lee used the concepts of wing chun to create Jkd.
Wing chun is a traditional martial art precisely because the same principle based approach is maintained down the generations. Most traditional CMA are principle based. Wing chun is more sparse than many other traditional CMA it is true. Gracie jiu jitsu (for example) is a traditional MA for the same reason.
Now where we might differ. Wing chun can be used in a pool game, a football match, picking your nose. The concepts apply to many things. I can train like a Thai boxer and use wing chun, so can you
Wing chun principles can be loosely applied to many areas of life I agree. You will not ever develop wing chun though if you read about some principles and then only train in MT. You will develop MT
If you look on YouTube you will see countless wing chun guys losing all technical ability and ending up looking more like choy lee fut. I have been to full contact events and seen it with my own eyes. The wing chun guys who can apply there kung fu in kickboxing type rules have to be able to box with there wing chun.. Simples
There is a lot of bad wing chun around. Many people never learn to make it functional, or just never learn it, while thinking they do. This is not the problem of the system
Chi sau is great and I teach it to my students but it’s easy to forget that chi sau is in many ways a cooperative training method which alot wing chun guys achieve an amazing level of skill but time and time again we see very little chi sau techniques in actual combat. Look at cheung vs boztepe. Boztepe has beautiful chi sau but you see him wrestle cheung.
If chi sau is a cooperative drill then why would you expect to see combat looking like chi sau? What do you think chi sau is for?
Barry lee who was WSL’s top foreign fighter was renowned for using just punches in real combat. Even WSL himself was reported by Duncan Leung to just use punches in most his fights. Show me the taan sau’s and qwan sau’s, laap sau’s?..
Why would you expect to see anything but hitting in a fight?
To use wing chun in the ring you need to train for the ring which is very possible since wing chun has some very good striking and I’m not talking endless chain punching. Hope I answered your questions Guy . Peace
Wing chun is not a good approach to ring fighting with gloves
[QUOTE=guy b.;1288335]Don’t worry, no danger of offending me. Say what you like
Wing chun is a traditional martial art precisely because the same principle based approach is maintained down the generations. Most traditional CMA are principle based. Wing chun is more sparse than many other traditional CMA it is true. Gracie jiu jitsu (for example) is a traditional MA for the same reason.
Wing chun principles can be loosely applied to many areas of life I agree. You will not ever develop wing chun though if you read about some principles and then only train in MT. You will develop MT
There is a lot of bad wing chun around. Many people never learn to make it functional, or just never learn it, while thinking they do. This is not the problem of the system
If chi sau is a cooperative drill then why would you expect to see combat looking like chi sau? What do you think chi sau is for?
Why would you expect to see anything but hitting in a fight?
Wing chun is not a good approach to ring fighting with gloves[/QUOTE]
Like I said my friend seems we have differences on how we view wing chun.
[QUOTE=chaotic2k;1288336]Like I said my friend seems we have differences on how we view wing chun. ;)[/QUOTE]
No problem, many different approaches