WC Teachers- You have 3 months

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

To train a guy with zero experience to enter a full contact feet and hands only competition. Drawing only from traditional WC as you were taught, how would you do it ? What would you focus on ? What would you drop ? Think about it because if you teach your guy **** that can not be used in 3 months, he is going to potentially get hurt. But call it amature and good reffing should anyone run into overwhelmed issues or looks like you are just outmatched and we end it to prevent serious injury. Paired up against a guy of similar time in say kick boxing. Or as below. A student with many years in.

When I was in California, I found an Isshin Ryu community. The teacher and student decided they knew what to do to enter a full contact kickboxing match. I was maybe 20 at the time and 2 years out of boxing. I offered to show the guy some boxing and ring work. He laughed and said he knew what he was doing. Went to Vegas for the fight. it was a pro fight and he never did anything but tag sparring. He got knocked out in the first round. In fact they had trouble bringing him back around. For a bit I was told they believed he was going to die. He ended up with brain damage. Thankfully not bad enough to cause disability. But that ended any nonsense he believed. Now, I probably could not have prevented that even if I showed him what little I knew but he was not ready in any way, shape or form and I KNEW THAT ! And he had 4 or more years in the art.

2

Three months is not enough. Even Ng Mui spent a year with Yim Wing Chun.

I would try to teach them to hit hard with straight punches, a push kick, low round leg kick (assuming side kick to the knee is illegal). I would teach more of a close range boxing and peekaboo style defence rather than mucking around with wing chun hands and chi sao. Not Wing Chun? I don’t care and it’s an artificial situation anyway.

Despite the opinions of certain forum luminaries, I would get them to train with gloves for this fight.

And I would expect them to lose and urge them to call it off. Not enough time.

3

Agreed with what Andrew said above - in both approach and that it’s not enough time.
It’s an unrealistic question and timeframe

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[QUOTE=anerlich;1286832]Three months is not enough. Even Ng Mui spent a year with Yim Wing Chun.

I would try to teach them to hit hard with straight punches, a push kick, low round leg kick (assuming side kick to the knee is illegal). I would teach more of a close range boxing and peekaboo style defence rather than mucking around with wing chun hands and chi sao. Not Wing Chun? I don’t care and it’s an artificial situation anyway.

Despite the opinions of certain forum luminaries, I would get them to train with gloves for this fight.

And I would expect them to lose and urge them to call it off. Not enough time.[/QUOTE]

So, you believe 3 months is not enough time to teach wing chun for full contact I believe. So, like the guy that got hurt, you have a student of 4 years. But low and behold you have 3 months to get him ready for full contact. His skills should be much greater. What do you keep , add or delete ?

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Billy, a big thing IMO would be to bring in an experienced kickboxer or two, have them gear up and really spar. Regardless of which art he’s from, the student will not really know what he’s getting into until he’s faced experienced full-contact fighters in training. Sure, he might watch some kickboxing or Muay Thai on TV and think he can handle them in their environment, but unless he’s trained and conditioned for it, it’s pretty much an unrealistic and even impossible scenario.

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1286833]Agreed with what Andrew said above - in both approach and that it’s not enough time.
It’s an unrealistic question and timeframe[/QUOTE]

Well, I believe I asked about a student of 4 years as well. Does he have enough time in to get ready in 3 months if you trained him? That goes for any WC teacher that wants to comment.

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[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1286845]Well, I believe I asked about a student of 4 years as well. Does he have enough time in to get ready in 3 months if you trained him? That goes for any WC teacher that wants to comment.[/QUOTE]

Uh yeah… that was after I replied. I hope you’re not implying I should now be using the H.Santos time machine here.. :rolleyes:
But to further the discussion..

[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1286834]So, you believe 3 months is not enough time to teach wing chun for full contact I believe. So, like the guy that got hurt, you have a student of 4 years. But low and behold you have 3 months to get him ready for full contact. His skills should be much greater. What do you keep , add or delete ?[/QUOTE]

First, I have no idea what you’re talking about regarding the ‘guy that got hurt’.

Second, I don’t see why you would need to keep or delete anything. Yeah, some things aren’t going to be focused on if they are disallowed by the rules or certain gear they may need to wear, but you don’t ‘delete’ anything - it’s pretty hard to ‘unlearn’ something. But if someone has been training regularly and diligently under a good teacher with good quality partners for 4 years, they should have a lot of what they need already. If they don’t then they have been getting robbed.

Now, if they haven’t been training specifically for competition or a given rule-set, then the focus for the next 3 months should be drilling, conditioning and various levels of sparring against good quality opponents similar to what they may be facing. All with the main focus of being ready to compete within whatever rules and possible gear they are going to be competing under. It’s not rocket science.

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Guys, I appreciate the replies. Jimbo. Great answer !!!

Do not tell me it can not be done. I know it can be done. Can you guys do it ? I bet Alan Orr could. That time frame may not be ideal. But it was the **** time frame. Don’t enter I guess . This is the SPORT side. Lets, see we can take wrestlers and football payers with no experience and have them playing in 3 months. Some will even win against guys with more time in. Why is WC any different ?

Don’t tell me it can’t be done- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nejg4TPv-e8 - just add kicks.

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1286848]Uh yeah… that was after I replied. I hope you’re not implying I should now be using the H.Santos time machine here.. :rolleyes:
But to further the discussion..

First, I have no idea what you’re talking about regarding the ‘guy that got hurt’.

QUOTE]
When I was in California, I found an Isshin Ryu community. The teacher and student decided they knew what to do to enter a full contact kickboxing match. I was maybe 20 at the time and 2 years out of boxing. I offered to show the guy some boxing and ring work. He laughed and said he knew what he was doing. Went to Vegas for the fight. it was a pro fight and he never did anything but tag sparring. He got knocked out in the first round. In fact they had trouble bringing him back around. For a bit I was told they believed he was going to die. He ended up with brain damage. Thankfully not bad enough to cause disability. But that ended any nonsense he believed. Now, I probably could not have prevented that even if I showed him what little I knew but he was not ready in any way, shape or form and I KNEW THAT ! And he had 4 or more years in the art. "

10

3 Months is 90 days.
I assume you choose that period because that is what pro fighters typically use to get in “fight shape”.

Of course it all depends on prior skill and so forth BUT starting with a complete noob with NO prior fighting experience at all…

You can get ANYONE in fighting shape in 3 months.
To what DEGREE they are competent depends on the person.

They would have to follow at least a 5 day protocol for the bulk of it ( 6 if that can handle it), something like 3 X a week the first week, 4X the next and 5X the next.

Focus will be spent on drills and sparring with a gradual increase in intensity up to full contact at least 3 weeks before the competition ( light sparring and drills the week of).

In short, you would do specialized training with concrete and defined SHORT TERM goals.

11

sanjuro_ronin ,

No. I figured it was a nice short time frame. I have seen plenty of guys start boxing and doing it 90 days later. For certain they are not champs. I myself was similar. I believe most in my area were like that back then too.

I believe WC should be able to do that like wrestling, boxing, football, or any sport. I know there are some that could do it. Get a beginner capable in 3 months for that.

Great reply.

Edit, also I think I mentioned . Against a guy with similar time doing it. Not exceeding 3 months what the new guy has trained. Obviously he would not be ready for someone highly skilled. I am not talking mismatches even though that happens a lot in all sorts of endeavors. So basically using ones WC for kickboxing.
I tried to point out things I saw in WC that may be moves not generally seen in WC in another thread. . Maybe I am stretching with that stuff. But why not if you can make the connection ?

Also, I mentioned good refs. Breaking dangerous stuff up fast. And that is EXACTELY what I saw with Phils student. Good ref. Now, for beginners I may suggest a bit heavier gloves and head gear. Id insist on it. I know that can potentially weaken WC straight punches if you guys don’t torque the waist but I was talking safe as possible but still heavy contact.

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[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1286831]To train a guy with zero experience to enter a full contact feet and hands only competition. Drawing only from traditional WC as you were taught, how would you do it ? What would you focus on ? What would you drop ? Think about it because if you teach your guy **** that can not be used in 3 months, he is going to potentially get hurt. But call it amature and good reffing should anyone run into overwhelmed issues or looks like you are just outmatched and we end it to prevent serious injury. Paired up against a guy of similar time in say kick boxing. Or as below. A student with many years in.

When I was in California, I found an Isshin Ryu community. The teacher and student decided they knew what to do to enter a full contact kickboxing match. I was maybe 20 at the time and 2 years out of boxing. I offered to show the guy some boxing and ring work. He laughed and said he knew what he was doing. Went to Vegas for the fight. it was a pro fight and he never did anything but tag sparring. He got knocked out in the first round. In fact they had trouble bringing him back around. For a bit I was told they believed he was going to die. He ended up with brain damage. Thankfully not bad enough to cause disability. But that ended any nonsense he believed. Now, I probably could not have prevented that even if I showed him what little I knew but he was not ready in any way, shape or form and I KNEW THAT ! And he had 4 or more years in the art.[/QUOTE]

Yes, you could do it.
But the trick is to keep it simple. In the early stages of competition its fitness that tends to win most fights.

Id be doing road work most morning mixed with a sprint session or two a week (mornings if he can), 5-6 evening sessions a week starting with fundamentals and pick out what he does best… pretty much what Andrew said.
A jab, solid cross and a good front kick will win most fights at this level

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I guess it all depends what the opponent is going to be like.

If it’s another guy that’s only trained 3 months, then he’s basically fighting a carbon copy of himself so it shouldn’t much matter. If it’s a guy that’s been training for five years who has a number of ring fights under his belt, then I’m definitely betting on the other guy, though I doubt I’d get anyone to take the bet.

There are white belt matches in BJJ. I personally would want to see a guy put in six months before competing, though if he was keen and reasonably competent after three months I wouldn’t stop him. You need at least a couple of months before anything starts to make sense anyway. Some schools don’t even let students roll for three months until they have an understanding of basic techniques.

At the lower levels, it very often comes down to superior attributes and conditioning. Someone coming from a rugby background, for example, can often do very well at the lower levels due to their conditioning and familiarity with contact sport.

I tell anyone competing for the first time to just do it for the experience, don’t worry about winning or losing. If they win, great. But most do not first time out. Martial arts are about learning and self discovery, and you learn much more from losses than wins.

I didn’t see any mention of the four years either. If I had a four year guy with three months to go, I’d get him working hard on his conditioning and get some experienced ring fighters to work with him, as coaches and sparmates. To be honest, I’d subcontract or send him to someone else as there are lots of people way better than me out there at fight preparation, some of whom for me are friends, and they aren’t difficult to find in a large city.

My focus as an instructor is on the beginners and average joes, getting them interested in a martial art that they can use to move towards athleticism and a healthy lifestyle, metal/emotional/physical/spiritual. Lighting that spark inside someone is what gives me satisfaction. Once they’re self-motivated and understand basic concepts, helping them learn more technique is comparatively easy.

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Month 1: Snake Engine
Month 2: Snake Slide
Month 3: Snake Bite

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Some players can really advance in 3 months others need more time to absorb. I’d definitely train them in most VT punching including uppercuts and hooking. Hard front kick. Pretty much gloss over bong Sau. Seriously work on footwork. Side step cross punching. Early on tenderize their bodies some with hard body contact, let em heal then alittle more towards the end. Keep it light towards the end so your player is trained but feels fresh. If they only have one fight or its a tournament the balance will be different.
Fun.

16

I knew you guys would get it. My fault. I am not always clear in my explanations. Writing is a second language to me.

I know you guys could do it. Phil Redmond is doing it. I know you guys could show up and do well in contact. YOU KNOW IT ! Then we would see a lot more WC holding there own across the board. It does not have to be 3 month. If you believe you could take the 1/2 your new guys to a competing level in 6 then that is great too. I think more of you should do it. Seek guidance outside of WC if you need to so that you really understand what should be worked. Go to Phil. Say, “Phil what should I do man”. I want my guys to have a chance of winning. How can I get there in 6 months with them."
That’s of main importance. if you really do not know, don’t assume you can do it. Find the help and one day you will know how to do it. But, I know some of you can do it today if you wanted to start.

Wing Chun can work as a sport. Phil has been proving it. And anytime their are rules. It is SPORT.

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wing chun vs.

In this case they say karate and kickboxing. Notice how everyone looks sloppy more than not ? This happens more so when you are no longer sparring you own art. Some may believe it is because those guys are beginners or just not very good, etc. You may be right but you would probably be wrong more than not. They are having trouble using their stuff against another art that us able to use their stuff. Look much better if it was just TKD vs TKD.
Or, WC vs. WC .

In my opinion these Wing Chun guys are doing good against other arts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERdWPBI6MH4

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[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1286909]Wing Chun can work as a sport. Phil has been proving it. And anytime their are rules. It is SPORT.[/QUOTE]

Wing chun is complete and utter S.H.I.T as a ring sport. If you must fight in the ring then there are only a few options. Either you change wing chun until it no longer resembles wing chun (Alan Orr), you fight at very low level (Phil Redmond), you lose (most likely outcome), or you don’t do it (everyone else).

Wing chun is not a ring sport. It is not designed as a ring sport. It doesn’t function well as a ring sport. Why would you ever want to be in a ring fighting with wing chun? Wrong tool wrong job.

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I’m sure Phil and his guys would disagree with you.
To be fair - unless you’re going to show how you would do it better (which you are not willing to do), why not cut out bashing of people that are not even part of the discussion and of which you know nothing about, eh?

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1287265]I’m sure Phil and his guys would disagree with you.
To be fair - unless you’re going to show how you would do it better (which you are not willing to do), why not cut out bashing of people that are not even part of the discussion and of which you know nothing about, eh?[/QUOTE]

I’m sure they will get over it, or not even care.

The only reason I mention these people is that they are used in yet another thread against normal traditional wing chun training. I do happen to think that what all of the people mentioned do is not of benefit to wing chun. But that is only my opinion and what they do is their business.

There is never any discussion anywhere about actual wing chun. Always it is about adapting wing chun for the ring, where wing chun is weak, how to change wing chun to make it better, how various peoples are rejecting traditional wing chun and making it different/better, how great sport training is compared to wing chun training, etc, etc