WC Teachers- You have 3 months

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1287349]Okay Guy. I believe in contact training. I also think a very small percent can make less contact ways work for them. I believe the scales tip toward contact even at the sacrifice of perfect form and holding to a specific principal. It is not that I do not believe eye jabs and throat hits or side kicks to wont work. It is just highly unlikely you will need them or not find yourself in great trouble if you use them.

But really, this thread is about getting a WC guy ready for full contact in 3 months. That would not be perfect WC anymore than 3 months would create a perfect boxer. Answer was some say yes and some say no.

Probably be my last post in this thread. I really do not want to get in a debate about will WC work with rules. It can. It does. You are wrong![/QUOTE]

Wing chun would be one of the least optimal ways of preparing for a ring fight with a 3 month time scale because it takes much longer than that to become functional with wing chun. Wing chun is also not a very good choice for ring fighting because of the way it works. You might actually be worse at fighting in a ring after 3 months of wing chun training than you would be without any training.

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[QUOTE=guy b.;1287357]Wing chun would be one of the least optimal ways of preparing for a ring fight with a 3 month time scale because it takes much longer than that to become functional with wing chun. Wing chun is also not a very good choice for ring fighting because of the way it works. You might actually be worse at fighting in a ring after 3 months of wing chun training than you would be without any training.[/QUOTE]

I never said it was optimal for that. I did suggest one could possibly adapt and adopt. Those old roof top battles. You think those guys did not ?

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[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1287358]I never said it was optimal for that. I did suggest one could possibly adapt and adopt. Those old roof top battles. You think those guys did not ?[/QUOTE]

If you wanted to train a person for a ring fight in 3 months then you would not train them in wing chun

What would you drop ?

wing chun

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1287333]Sanjuro, I would agree with that premise! Considering all other factors being equal (starting attributes and aptitude of students being compared are equal)[/QUOTE]

Of course, we are talking about an average and how, on average, easily a system is “absorbed” by the typical person.
Some people can make ANYTHING work while some people CAN’T make anything work.

EX:
If the typical boxer can defeat an untrained person after 3 months and a typical WC person can’t, then boxing as a better system.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1287372]EX:If the typical boxer can defeat an untrained person after 3 months and a typical WC person can’t, then boxing as a better system.[/QUOTE]

Does not follow. Boxing is a quicker system in which to gain proficiency would be a valid conclusion.

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[QUOTE=guy b.;1287387]Does not follow. Boxing is a quicker system in which to gain proficiency would be a valid conclusion.[/QUOTE]

Yes which means that boxing ( as the example and under that context) would be a better system.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1287410]Yes which means that boxing ( as the example and under that context) would be a better system.[/QUOTE]

It does not have to be, if it is. I know there are WC schools that can do the same. Has to be. If I can imagine it, chances are someone is doing it already.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1287410]Yes which means that boxing ( as the example and under that context) would be a better system.[/QUOTE]

Under a situation where you had to prepare for a ring fight in 3 months from a start of zero experience then yes boxing would be better than wing chun. But in life such situations normally do not exist unless you put yourself into them.

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[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1287411]It does not have to be, if it is. I know there are WC schools that can do the same. Has to be. If I can imagine it, chances are someone is doing it already.[/QUOTE]

Correct, it is and always has been about the training.
You train to fight and you get good at fighting very quickly.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1287414]Correct, it is and always has been about the training.
You train to fight and you get good at fighting very quickly.[/QUOTE]

3 months of wing chun fairly diligently will get you through the first form and onto dan chi and poon sau. You might also start the wall bag, and maybe some pole movements if you are that way inclined. You will not be an effective fighter with this.

Doing it in a different (faster) way will not develop the wing chun body correctly, and so will not be wing chun. It might look like wing chun in that you will be affecting the shape, but the system requires particular work at particular times in order to develop the correct body and actions.

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[QUOTE=guy b.;1287437]3 months of wing chun fairly diligently will get you through the first form and onto dan chi and poon sau. You might also start the wall bag, and maybe some pole movements if you are that way inclined. You will not be an effective fighter with this. [/QUOTE]

Agreed, you will not be an effective fighter if you take this route. But then, if you are training someone to fight with WC in a short time period, this is not the way you would do it. For example, there is no reason to be doing pole work if your goal is to train someone to fight in 3 months.

[QUOTE=guy b.;1287437]Doing it in a different (faster) way will not develop the wing chun body correctly, and so will not be wing chun. It might look like wing chun in that you will be affecting the shape, but the system requires particular work at particular times in order to develop the correct body and actions.[/QUOTE]

Not sure what you mean by 'WC bodyl or a ‘faster way’, but I would disagree. You could very well teach someone the basic ideas of WC Self CL & COG, how to build basic structures with which to punch, bridge on center and use basic 4 gate defenses coupled with lots of drilling, bag work and sparring. 3 months isn’t a lot of time, but with the correct focus, you should have similar results to most other arts. It’s all in the approach and methodologies.

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1287442]For example, there is no reason to be doing pole work if your goal is to train someone to fight in 3 months.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps he is referring to pole work from the aspect of developing power.

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[QUOTE=wckf92;1287443]Perhaps he is referring to pole work from the aspect of developing power.[/QUOTE]

You could be right. But if I only had 3 months to train a newbie, I’d skip that anyway as well as the form work and ‘poon sau’ he mentioned. There are much more direct ways for developing WC punching power than using a pole and forms/poon sau wouldn’t be effective in meeting the goal, as he pointed out.

My contention is that looking at these to do the job is the wrong approach - and surely not the only approach by which he disregards WC’s ability to train a fighter quickly altogether.

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1287459]You could be right. But if I only had 3 months to train a newbie, I’d skip that anyway as well as the form work and ‘poon sau’ he mentioned. There are much more direct ways for developing WC punching power than using a pole and forms/poon sau wouldn’t be effective in meeting the goal, as he pointed out.

My contention is that looking at these to do the job is the wrong approach - and surely not the only approach by which he disregards WC’s ability to train a fighter quickly altogether.[/QUOTE]

JPin, please add your direct methods for developing WC punching power. Thanks.

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1287442]Agreed, you will not be an effective fighter if you take this route. But then, if you are training someone to fight with WC in a short time period, this is not the way you would do it. For example, there is no reason to be doing pole work if your goal is to train someone to fight in 3 months.[/QUOTE]

There is no way to short cut wing chun training because above all it is about developing the body connection, neural connections, timing and force handling to hit hard with the hands while controlling the options of the opponent. The training method as it stands is a work of genius to produce such a thing in such a short time. If you insist on 3 months you will simply be producing a different product- i.e. not wing chun. Why would you wish to short change a student in such a way? Awful problems can result when people follow a poor methodology.

Not sure what you mean by 'WC bodyl or a ‘faster way’, but I would disagree. You could very well teach someone the basic ideas of WC Self CL & COG, how to build basic structures with which to punch, bridge on center and use basic 4 gate defenses coupled with lots of drilling, bag work and sparring. 3 months isn’t a lot of time, but with the correct focus, you should have similar results to most other arts. It’s all in the approach and methodologies.

Wing chun body is the power generation, ability to impose control, ability to move correctly, that the method of wing chun produces. I don’t think there is any short cut to achieve this. Sure you can achieve something different in 3 months, but not wing chun.

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[QUOTE=guy b.;1287475]There is no way to short cut wing chun training because above all it is about developing the body connection, neural connections, timing and force handling to hit hard with the hands while controlling the options of the opponent. The training method as it stands is a work of genius to produce such a thing in such a short time. If you insist on 3 months you will simply be producing a different product- i.e. not wing chun. Why would you wish to short change a student in such a way? Awful problems can result when people follow a poor methodology.[/QUOTE]

Who said I insist or wish to do anything? I’m just discussing the premise of increasing someone’s fighting ability from a WC methodology within 3 month (which in case you’ve forgotten, is what this thread is about lol) Now I agree that is a much different approach vs passing on the system - which seems to be more along the lines you are talking about.

I think you’re mixing passing on system knowledge and building fight skill - 2 very different training approaches. WC was designed to develop or improve-upon one’s fighting abilities in a short amount of time as possible. They didn’t have years to pass on a complete a system to everyone back is was being used for revolutionary purposes, nor did they need to with most people being trained.
It’s rediculous to think you can’t improve someone’s fighting abilities to some degree in 3 months time and still have it ‘WC’. I’ve trained students that have improved a lot in their first 3 months with only a san sau-focused drilling approach. Were they ready for the UFC? Of course not! Were they ‘ready for competition’ as the thread inquires? Probably not - but then that wasn’t the focus either and we were only training 2 hours a day, 2-3 times a week. And then I have other students that take much longer to show improvement. But the ones that do improve quickly very much demonstrate improved wing chun abilities in that time - and were most definitely ‘doing WC’!

Hell, just last night after training at my WC brother’s school, I was commenting how well 2 of his student was coming along. I have only recently started training back at the school, so didn’t know how long they had been training with him One had been there around 3 months and another only about 4 months. Their ‘wing chun body’ mechanics and ability to demonstrate some key basic WC principles was surely there!

[QUOTE=guy b.;1287475]Wing chun body is the power generation, ability to impose control, ability to move correctly, that the method of wing chun produces. I don’t think there is any short cut to achieve this. Sure you can achieve something different in 3 months, but not wing chun.[/QUOTE]

Who said anything about short cutting anything? We’re talking about developing skill - that starts on day one and goes from there.

Exactly how long do you think it takes to start developing ‘wing chun body’ and ‘wing chun’ skill if you can’t even begin to do it in 3 months? is 6 months enough? 1 year? 2 years? I don’t see there being any magical number to this. IMO, it starts on the very first day of training, and goes from there. Of course the skill level isn’t high at first and progress depends greatly on the student, the teacher, the training method and the amount of effort put in. Some imrove very quickly and some don’t. But if you’re implying it takes a year or more to even start to develop usable WC body methods and structure, you’re doing something wrong or learning from the wrong teachers :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1287480]I think you’re mixing passing on system knowledge and building fight skill - 2 very different training approaches. [/QUOTE]

Wing chun is a personal development process. Different process, different result.

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[QUOTE=guy b.;1287483]Wing chun is a personal development process. Different process, different result.[/QUOTE]

wow, thanks for that - and for ignoring the rest of my responses/questions to you. I don’t mean this as a slight against you but IMO this is a very narrow view of WC teaching methodology which probably comes from never having taught before.
In life there are many different methods & approaches that teach us how to do things where the end result is the same. Why would WC be any different?

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1287513]wow, thanks for that - and for ignoring the rest of my responses/questions to you. I don’t mean this as a slight against you but IMO this is a very narrow view of WC teaching methodology which probably comes from never having taught before.
In life there are many different methods & approaches that teach us how to do things where the end result is the same. Why would WC be any different?[/QUOTE]

Because it is a traditional kung fu system?

Don’t you have a training methodology to follow? Of course it is somewhat adaptable based on personal factors (like time to introduce pole), but it is a process that builds upon what has been done previously and requires certain inputs at certain times in order to develop certain physical attributes and skills.

I will answer your long post below. Please don’t get annoyed when I only provide a short answer; sometimes I do not have time for a longer one.

WC was designed to develop or improve-upon one’s fighting abilities in a short amount of time as possible. They didn’t have years to pass on a complete a system to everyone back is was being used for revolutionary purposes, nor did they need to with most people being trained.

I do not believe this is true based on the system as I have experienced it. I think this is a part of wing chun mythology.

It’s rediculous to think you can’t improve someone’s fighting abilities to some degree in 3 months time and still have it ‘WC’. I’ve trained students that have improved a lot in their first 3 months with only a san sau-focused drilling approach. Were they ready for the UFC? Of course not! Were they ‘ready for competition’ as the thread inquires? Probably not - but then that wasn’t the focus either and we were only training 2 hours a day, 2-3 times a week. And then I have other students that take much longer to show improvement. But the ones that do improve quickly very much demonstrate improved wing chun abilities in that time - and were most definitely ‘doing WC’!

I do not believe that san sau drilling over 3 months can build effective wing chun, because doing it in this way will still require the same order of building. Therefore in 3 months you will still be working on the elbow and structure, not effective fighting skills. 3 months is not enough time to make a wing chun fighter in my opinion. You can make a person that punches and moves forward, sure. Maybe they will have some wing chun looking strategies or tricks. But this is a different thing.

Hell, just last night after training at my WC brother’s school, I was commenting how well 2 of his student was coming along. I have only recently started training back at the school, so didn’t know how long they had been training with him One had been there around 3 months and another only about 4 months. Their ‘wing chun body’ mechanics and ability to demonstrate some key basic WC principles was surely there!

Ok, good. I think their wing chun body mechanics cannot have been complete in three months though, am I correct? And were they ready to fight in the ring?

Who said anything about short cutting anything? We’re talking about developing skill - that starts on day one and goes from there

If you are not building skill in the same way as the usual approach (you are trying to build what you see as the most crucial skills faster), then you must compromise on something else since time is limited and the usual process is slower.

Exactly how long do you think it takes to start developing ‘wing chun body’ and ‘wing chun’ skill if you can’t even begin to do it in 3 months? is 6 months enough? 1 year? 2 years? I don’t see there being any magical number to this. IMO, it starts on the very first day of training, and goes from there.

I agree that it starts on the first day of training and goes from there. But I also think that 3 months is nowhere near enough time to cover all that needs to be covered given the process as it stands. Any wing chun fighter thinking of actually fighting should have completed the empty hand forms and associated drills, the pole, and the dummy. They should have been going through the error correcting process of chi sau for some time, and have at least started gor sau. Can this be done in 3 months? No. Therefore any 3 month attempt is a compromise and is in effect short changing the student and producing something other than a wing chun fighter. Wing chun is a method for getting people ready to fight..you need to follow it if you want to end up with a wing chun fighter.

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I appreciate your views, but we seem to be going in circles here as you are asking questions I’ve already answered.
Let me ask you before I reply - have you taught WC at all? From what you’ve shared on this forum and others, you are a student currently yes? I am not asking in an attempt to belittle your views, but without a at least few years actually teaching, how can you really know what can be accomplished?

WC being a ‘traditional system’ doesn’t mean much to me in terms of how long it should take to learn. Again, there are different methods of training depending on the student and the goal. For example, I can teach someone to ‘fight’ with wing chun quite well without any pole, weapons or dummy forms work (but I do admit, san sau drills on the dummy help). This can also be done without really even getting into much past the SNT form and focusing more on san sau drilling (solo work, partner drilling, skill challenge and sparring). Will they be able to pass on the system with this method? Most surely not. And IMO this is part of why we see so many different version of WC today.
But with this type of focus, passing on the system isn’t the goal. Again, the goal is in developing a competent WC fighter. 3 months, sure, as I’ve already said several time, not enough time to COMPLETE this goal. But it is surely enough to start getting some decent base results and improved fight skill. (which BTW, you still have yet to answer - exactly how long DOES it take in your view?)
And if you don’t agree with me, that’s ok - your WC just might not be as efficient as mine! lol :smiley: