WC teachers would have nothing to teach if...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=chusauli;1016069]Yip Man wasn’t always so little or frail as you see him in his last days. He was healthy and quite strong for his size. From stories I have heard, he always had people on their heels or on the balls of their feet, and always guided them into objects or into other classmates. He was able to do this with his manipulation of body power (structure, mechanics, alignment) through his bridges. Again, as I said, simply by doing the Cern Fuk and Cern Tok of the Jong, you can develop the 6 powers, but it must be done with the body.

The late Wong Shun Leung and I did Chi Sao back in 1987 in HK and later again in the early 1990’s in SF. He pushed and pulled me about like I was nothing. Considering the size difference, I was very impressed. Ho Kam Ming also did the same to me when he visited Hawkins in 1988 in Los Angeles. These were two of Yip Man’s students who have no Tai Ji training (which I assume you are referring to Hawkins), and practice and only taught WCK. If not for their body power, how could they move a big guy like me? Tsui Sheung Tien, whom I met in 1987 in Cheung Sha Wan area in Kowloon, also has this ability and very sticky, but he also learned Tai Ji Quan.

Others in WCK under Yip Man tell us that Yip Man hardly did Chi Sao with them. If this is so, how could they teach you this method? Hawkins Cheung is tiny - about 5’ 4", 108 lbs. He has often controlled me and thrown me about when I did not understand his method. One Yip Man student I met had no such ability with his body and lacked a rooted stance, was of big size and strong arms, but totally lacking in this ability with his body. So it is not across the board.

Even others can tell you they will hit you during Chi Sao and there is nothing you can do about it and they do not use hand speed, but body control.

Alan Orr is not a big guy, he’s big for his size, but he is a physically fit guy. In pictures on his website, you can see the difference in size between us.

I am sorry if you did not learn WCK like this, but it is a facet of Yip Man’s art.[/QUOTE]

That entire paragraph brought up another good point. This uprooting only really happens during contrived drills like chi sao. No one gets uprooted during sparring, only hit.

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[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1016147]That entire paragraph brought up another good point. This uprooting only really happens during contrived drills like chi sao. No one gets uprooted during sparring, only hit.[/QUOTE]

Not true IMO.

joy chaudhuri

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[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1016150]-----------------------------------------------------------
Not true IMO.

joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]

Very true, IMO. Why post if it’s only going to be one sentence? Add something worthwhile to the discussion.

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[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1016147]That entire paragraph brought up another good point. This uprooting only really happens during contrived drills like chi sao. No one gets uprooted during sparring, only hit.[/QUOTE]

Mysterious, it would be good to know your background, who you studied with, what lineage, how long you studied and your real name. What is there to hide? Otherwise, I think you are just a Troll.

I don’t have to talk about Wong Shun Leung’s or Ho Kam Ming’s background, neither Hawkins’ or Tsui’s. They are the pillars of the first generation of students under Yip Man.

Do you just think Chi Sao is just contrived? Chi Sao can be obviously planned, artificial, or lacking in spontaneity; forced; unnatural, especially if you have some poor instruction, or a beginner, but the converse is also true. And you have never been uprooted before in sparring? Then it is you who is lacking in experienced partners and are limited, not just in WCK, but in fighting. If you spar with other systems, you know people will try to trip you, throw you, take you down, and you will be uprooted.

I don’t know what else to say.

This is not WCK’s problem, this is your problem.

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I do not know you or even know much of you. What I have witnessed is that the main reason people give you’re opinions credence over someone like me is because of whatever reputation you have built up. If you were anonymous like me your opinins would not be taken as seriously. Try this. Try posting under a different name and see if people give your opinins so much credence.

Call me a troll? My opinion is worth as much as yours. You have a famous name. That is your only edge in posting.

I have been thrown and tripped before…but never by someone who trained in contrived structure drill training. They just train.

[QUOTE=chusauli;1016201]Mysterious, it would be good to know your background, who you studied with, what lineage, how long you studied and your real name. What is there to hide? Otherwise, I think you are just a Troll.

I don’t have to talk about Wong Shun Leung’s or Ho Kam Ming’s background, neither Hawkins’ or Tsui’s. They are the pillars of the first generation of students under Yip Man.

Do you just think Chi Sao is just contrived? Chi Sao can be obviously planned, artificial, or lacking in spontaneity; forced; unnatural, especially if you have some poor instruction, or a beginner, but the converse is also true. And you have never been uprooted before in sparring? Then it is you who is lacking in experienced partners and are limited, not just in WCK, but in fighting. If you spar with other systems, you know people will try to trip you, throw you, take you down, and you will be uprooted.

I don’t know what else to say.

This is not WCK’s problem, this is your problem.[/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1016207]I do not know you or even know much of you. What I have witnessed is that the main reason people give you’re opinions credence over someone like me is because of whatever reputation you have built up. If you were anonymous like me your opinins would not be taken as seriously. Try this. Try posting under a different name and see if people give your opinins so much credence.

Call me a troll? My opinion is worth as much as yours. You have a famous name. That is your only edge in posting.[/QUOTE]

Probably one of the most democratic posts I’ve seen of late! I have to admit, when I first started posting here I was in awe of people like Robert Chu mainly because I respect people who promote Wing Chun effectively.

BUT I have had my cross words with him too, and had all sorts of issues at the beginning as I was somehow pigeon holed as being a spokesman for Lee Shing Family and as that particular family is still relatively unknown outside the UK my opinions were sh1t on from a great height!

That was after I added my signature and declared who I learnt from so my advice is STAY ANONYMOUS!!! :smiley:

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1016235]Probably one of the most democratic posts I’ve seen of late! I have to admit, when I first started posting here I was in awe of people like Robert Chu mainly because I respect people who promote Wing Chun effectively.

BUT I have had my cross words with him too, and had all sorts of issues at the beginning as I was somehow pigeon holed as being a spokesman for Lee Shing Family and as that particular family is still relatively unknown outside the UK my opinions were sh1t on from a great height!

That was after I added my signature and declared who I learnt from so my advice is STAY ANONYMOUS!!! :D[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the support, buddy. No hard feelings for the other posts. I misread your posts and now all offenses have been cleared up.

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What Robert said is true and basic.. It doesn’t matter who said it.. Truth needs no resume.. Conversely, erroneous blanket statements also need no resume to see them for what they are.

Interesting variation on the ad hominem attack though..

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[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1016207]I do not know you or even know much of you. What I have witnessed is that the main reason people give you’re opinions credence over someone like me is because of whatever reputation you have built up. If you were anonymous like me your opinins would not be taken as seriously. Try this. Try posting under a different name and see if people give your opinins so much credence.

Call me a troll? My opinion is worth as much as yours. You have a famous name. That is your only edge in posting.

I have been thrown and tripped before…but never by someone who trained in contrived structure drill training. They just train.[/QUOTE]

Stick to the issue.

Who are you?

What is your lineage? How long have you trained?

If you’ve been tripped or thrown, then you have been uprooted.

Your opinion is as good as mine.

Don’t worry about names. Maybe I have it all wrong; I can learn from anyone. If they’re wrong, they can still teach me how not to be wrong; if correct, they can enhance my knowledge. All the “reputation” or “name” is silly.

A reputation is not even the real me - people think they know me here through the forum, but never met me in person. How do they know me?

90

To say that pushing and pulling in chi sao is more like tai chi is simply incorrect. Hawkin’s Cheung definately didn’t make it up from his tai chi practice, it is an integral part of chi sao to work your balance and your partners. Take your partners balance and feel for yourself how much more control you have than just using “fast” hands.
I don’t feel R. Chu’s name gives him instant credit on the board, people argue with him all the time. However even if you disagree, he says interesting things and is willing to share.

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I am not trying to start a war. Let us get back on track.

Everyone relax please.

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[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1016310]I am not trying to start a war. Let us get back on track.

Everyone relax please.[/QUOTE]

I’m relaxed and have no interest in a war of words. We are discussing here. Having a little tea like Yip Man, Sum Nung, and Yuen Kay Shan in the old days in Futshan.

Mysterious, who are you? What is your name? What is your lineage? How long have you trained?

We know mostly everyone here, so its good to know whom we speak to.

Here, there’s no “famous” or “not famous”, just WCK players.

Just curious to know.

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[QUOTE=chusauli;1016335]Having a little tea like Yip Man, Sum Nung, and Yuen Kay Shan in the old days in Futshan.
[/QUOTE]

And I’m sure they never argued. :rolleyes:

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If mysterious doesn’t want to give his background, he doesn’t have too. There’s no requirement of that to come to this forum and post views. While it’s nice to know a bit about the person you’re conversing with, he isn’t required to qualify his views by listing his background.
This type of repeated questioning IMO is an attempt to see who he is and possibly discredit him or his views because of it. If it was just once, no biggy, but how many times has it been asked? 3?? Jeez, talk about attachment!

BTW, Robert has been asked a few times about his background by punch, which he’s repeatedly ignored. :rolleyes:

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No interest in discrediting anyone.

I just like to know who I am speaking with and the background of whom I speak with.

No need for degeneration. I relate better to people rather than “handles”.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1016116]Every system incorporates structure, I think that Roberts’ tends to focus on it more in the beginning so that that “delivery platform” for their techniques is well developed.
Is that advantageous compared to system that don’t?
To be honest, I don’t know.
I can tell you this though, from experience I have learned that certain systems need to be trained a certain way to get the right development.[/QUOTE]I think that’s a fair assessment and a balanced response. Not something that we see very often in these forums. Thanks Paul.

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[QUOTE=Matrix;1016418]I think that’s a fair assessment and a balanced response. Not something that we see very often in these forums. Thanks Paul.[/QUOTE]

Serious question deserves a serious answer.

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1016383]If mysterious doesn’t want to give his background, he doesn’t have too. There’s no requirement of that to come to this forum and post views. While it’s nice to know a bit about the person you’re conversing with, he isn’t required to qualify his views by listing his background.
This type of repeated questioning IMO is an attempt to see who he is and possibly discredit him or his views because of it. If it was just once, no biggy, but how many times has it been asked? 3?? Jeez, talk about attachment!

BTW, Robert has been asked a few times about his background by punch, which he’s repeatedly ignored. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

My point exactly. :rolleyes:

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With all honesty, I never understood the issue with telling people your MA background, who you trained with and when.
I don’t get it at all.
Sorry.
One should be proud of what they have accomplished in their MA journey.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1016499]With all honesty, I never understood the issue with telling people your MA background, who you trained with and when.
I don’t get it at all.
Sorry.
One should be proud of what they have accomplished in their MA journey.[/QUOTE]

My point exactly! :slight_smile:

And conversely, what is there to hide?

My background is readily available in numerous magazines, interviews, and a few books and DVD’s.