Structure seems to be the new buzz word around here, but I wouldn’t be surprised if almost no one defines it the same way.
What is your definition of structure and how do you apply it in your training/sparring/fighting?
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;761798]Structure seems to be the new buzz word around here, but I wouldn’t be surprised if almost no one defines it the same way.
What is your definition of structure and how do you apply it in your training/sparring/fighting?[/QUOTE]
A beginners perspective…
Structure = A united Front…
Since I am only in playing/training mode, I cannot expound on the fighting portion. You isolate things and take piece by piece everything about the structure that is useful, then add it in everything you do. First you start by learning ground sitting or the ability to be soild so that your power can be transmitted from you to him, stationary first. Then you apply it to movement in a slow and steady environment. Maintaining root while being mobile is the ideal. Perfect in practice, maybe 50 in the real, would be a good goal. My idea of this is that the majority of the people in the world are so “Ungrounded” that you can uproot, overpower, unstabilize, dominate, because of good understanding and consistent/intense training under your belt, you have an advantage over the average guy (your most likely opponent on the street). Obviously when your opponent has the same or more of this type of stuff, or a method that prevents you from applying it, you will have to adapt. It is just something you incorporate into yourself, like breathing, so that it is present in everything you do, but also under your control.
Go visit Sifu Lam Dale, he has it so naturally that people look at him and think he doesn’t, that is until you make contact with him, lol…
James
P.S. Good subject to bring up 
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;761798]Structure seems to be the new buzz word around here, but I wouldn’t be surprised if almost no one defines it the same way.[/QUOTE]
1- It’s not new
2- It’s not a “buzz-word”
3- Your question clearly indicates that you think this is all a joke, so why bother?:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Matrix;761824]1- It’s not new
2- It’s not a “buzz-word”[/QUOTE]
Well, it’s certainly getting a lot of air play lately.
[QUOTE=Matrix;761824]
3- Your question clearly indicates that you think this is all a joke, so why bother?:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Not at all. I think structure (at least the way I define it) is a very valid concept and has a huge impact on how one approaches fighting/training/competing. I think structure is the starting point for any style and helps to determine its effectiveness or lack thereof.
However, I’m betting that most people don’t even define it the same way, and, so, are not even on the same page when discussing it.
Ya know, I’ve been looking at this screen for ten minutes, and I just cant describe it here. I can show you what I mean, I can teach it, but I can’t explain it with just words. I quit.
[QUOTE=sihing;761801]Structure = A united Front…[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Water Dragon;761831]Ya know, I’ve been looking at this screen for ten minutes, and I just cant describe it here. I can show you what I mean, I can teach it, but I can’t explain it with just words. I quit.[/QUOTE]
See what I mean?
Here’s an example: When you’re in someone’s guard, and you sit back and lift your head so that can’t pull you down. That strong feeling through your back, the one that makes you feel like an oak tree to the other guy, that “feeling/idea” is structure.
See? You can show that, you can teach it, but how do you describe it to someone’s who’s never experienced that? Structure is inherent to skilled martial arts.
Dale,
the easiest way to explain structure to someone with BJJ experience- structure is frame.
Basic Wing Chun structure
- gut activated so the L-spine doesn’t hyperextend
- pelvis slightly anterior to the greater trochanter so the leg braces against the ground
- hip slightly flexed with the back knee aimed into the other person so gluts and hams are at a decent length to apply force- the whole ‘sit’ thing is kinda like the second pull
-chest neutral, depends on what’s going on as to how it gets used
-head up with a strong back- nice posture to prevent a snap down
-shoulders ‘down’- shoulder girdle activated so the arm doesn’t lose connection to the body - elbows down, or more generally, inside the area just in front of the body in a position of mechanical advantage
-body relatively upright (closer to Ali than Frazier) so it’s easier to move hip and shoulder together (as opposed to shoulder and knee, which also has its merits)
-weight on the front half of the foot, pushing off the side (from the external rotation component of hip extension, something which some lines like to emphasize by using the pigeon toed stance- unfortunately, many forgot why they do it).
FWIW,
Andrew
[QUOTE=Water Dragon;761839]Here’s an example: When you’re in someone’s guard, and you sit back and lift your head so that can’t pull you down. That strong feeling through your back, the one that makes you feel like an oak tree to the other guy, that “feeling/idea” is structure.
[/QUOTE]
Can you differentiate between structure and posture?
[QUOTE=Water Dragon;761839]Here’s an example: When you’re in someone’s guard, and you sit back and lift your head so that can’t pull you down. That strong feeling through your back, the one that makes you feel like an oak tree to the other guy, that “feeling/idea” is structure.
See? You can show that, you can teach it, but how do you describe it to someone’s who’s never experienced that?[/QUOTE]
Simple: In terms of gi- sitting back over the heels, back straight, head up, arms partially extended and pushing into solar plexus area, hands gripping gi lapel strongly.
Structure (at least my definition of it) is variable and depends on the situation and style. Wrestling structure is different than Judo structure is different than Sambo structure is different than BJJ structure is different standing than on the ground is different in the guard than holding someone in the guard is different than mounted structure is different than side control structure is different than boxing structure is different than Muay Thai structure is different when at outside range is different when neck tying is different when defending the neck tie, etc, etc, etc.
[QUOTE=LeeCasebolt;761855]Can you differentiate between structure and posture?[/QUOTE]
Same, same… or different.
Different, in that some people might not include the arms into the equation of posture or where they are placed on the opponent.
As I said. I think many people have different definitions of structure and, thus, are not even talking about the same thing.
However, once we get on the same page about what structure is, then we can talk about structure in terms of different fighting approaches.
Hi Knifefighter
RE:
Structure (at least my definition of it) is variable and depends on the situation and style. Wrestling structure is different than Judo structure is different than Sambo structure is different than BJJ structure is different standing than on the ground is different in the guard than holding someone in the guard is different than mounted structure is different than side control structure is different than boxing structure is different than Muay Thai structure is different when at outside range is different when neck tying is different when defending the neck tie, etc, etc, etc
Alan: Yes your right.
What decides if an art has its sturcutre correct within its own ideas on structure. A good wing chun structure a good BBJ structure. These depend on the understanding of position control. Can you keep your conrol under pressure. This is where a lot of arts fall down. In wing chun this is a big problem for a lot of styles. In BBJ if you roll and can not control your structure you can turned or its tap out time. That is why stand up structure is not fully understood.
I will start a new thread along the same debate for my Project study shortly.
All views may be used as quotes so I will let people know at the start of the thread.
Good post
My best
Alan
KF,
My perspective is that for me, body structure (which includes the limbs) is a specific way that we use our body to accomplish some task, and has more to do with maximizing body mechanics. There is an optimum way to use our body to do anything. For example, if I wanted to push a stalled car, there are optimal ways to use my body to do that. Similarly, if I want to shut my opponent’s offense down on contact, there is an optimum way to use my body to do that. I’ve told Robert that I don’t like his use of the term “body structure” because it really isn’t accurate (not what is really going on) and suggests ‘fixedness’ when what is really going on is dynamic but I know why he uses it (for beginners).
FWIW, “body structure” is a buzzword IMO, and it’s one that you never heard ten years ago. I first heard it used on the old WCML by Robert describing his methods. Since that time, it has entered the WCK lexicon along with many other misused words (trapping, etc.).
IMO for all styles, fighting boils down to a few things, one of them is body mechanics.
my thai coach uses the word structure all the time (and sensitivity etc LOL@wingchun being exclusive, anyway…). as a good example when teaching holding thai pads, when you hold for a right cross the two parts of it are the basic position (so the pad is at eye level, not too far apart like your fighting two people) then the more subtle aspect of how you hold the shoulder joint, timing how you feed on to the punch etc. (nb: thai pad has a different feel to it to focus mitt as it fixes the forearm). if the punch knocks your pad right back so your flailing all over the place its no use and potential to cause injury (especially in your shoulder)
you have to have the same characteristics in moving when you hold pads as in fighting namely moving fast and balanced (footwork and firing shots back) while being able to absorb force (helluva lot sometimes).
having a shoulder injury really tidied up my pad holding like nothing else!
andrew, knifefighter,
i agree with ‘frame’ but how about ‘base’ too?
Structure - the specific detail behind the alignment of your body including all of its parts with respect to #1 itself, and #2 any opponent(s).
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;761829]Well, it’s certainly getting a lot of air play lately.[/QUOTE]But Dale, I know that you have WC training and since some basics of structure are taught from day-one, I figured that you must have heard of this “buzz word” before. My mistake if this is not the case.
Disclaimer:
The opinions of the author expressed in this post are those of a theoretical non-fighting WC’er and do not necessarily state or reflect those of the Wing Chun community at large. Neither the art of Wing Chun nor any of its practioners makes any warranty, expressed or implied, or assumes any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information, theory, application or process disclosed, or represents that its use would not infringe on privately held views.
Wait for it…
…I agree with Terrence. :eek:
Structure to me, is the means in which to convey how to maximise your body mechanics for a variety of end results. With regard to fighting…
- To exhert force and meet your maximum potential in this regard and
- To recieve force, minimising what force is put on you in any given situation
…is achieved by using good structure ( however you percieve it )
I would expect alot of importance stressed on structure / posture in the MANY VT systems out there, given the foundations of the theories are supported by stucture.
Aside from body posture, VT relies heavily on the structure of the elbow…:rolleyes:
Also examples of structure are everywhere in everyday life and are well known to all, most people would have heard the old saying “lift with the knees” with regard to manual labour… This is one basic example.
Just because you guys or maybe Terence only, haven’t heard of the term “structure” before 10 years ago doesn’t mean it wasnt’ around or never used in this manner. Robert Chu was not the first to coin the term, but who cares…
I also agree that structure has a lot to do with maximising body mechanics however it’s not limited to physically describing the body mechanics - thats only half the story.
Its funny though that this topic is started by someone who doesn’t believe in training traditional forms. When a kungfu guy, especially taichi, wing chun, bagua, xingyi, is training their forms - what do you think they are training?
structure of course!
When the word stucture is used its very generic word,but in the context of WCK to me I think of the concept of the iron (bone) bar rap in cotton (muscle skin)= structure.
[QUOTE=jooerduo;762558]Just because you guys or maybe Terence only, haven’t heard of the term “structure” before 10 years ago doesn’t mean it wasnt’ around or never used in this manner. Robert Chu was not the first to coin the term, but who cares…
[/QUOTE]
Who cares? Apparently you. 
I said “body structure” is the new buzzword, and that it wasn’t widely (hardly at all) talked about until about ten years ago when Robert began emphasizing it first on the WCML.
I also agree that structure has a lot to do with maximising body mechanics however it’s not limited to physically describing the body mechanics - thats only half the story.
What’s the other half in your opinion?
Its funny though that this topic is started by someone who doesn’t believe in training traditional forms. When a kungfu guy, especially taichi, wing chun, bagua, xingyi, is training their forms - what do you think they are training?
structure of course!
No, they are wasting their time for the most part (something TCMAs are best at). When boxers box, they are training their structure; when wrestlers grapple, they are training their structure. To train structure you need to be using it.