Body Structure Functional Application

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1013254]"I will say the majority of WCK does not use the Body Structure as I use it. (Robert Chu)
…

***I understand that you have various testing methodolgies for what you call body structure, but I’m not addressing that right now.

What I’d like to know is exactly what in the body structure that you use makes a difference in actual fight application?

What’s different about it that can be seen (or felt) in actual fight application?

And that presumably makes it more effective than every other wing chun system - precisely because they are not using your specific approach to body structure in fight application?[/QUOTE]

I took this out of the boxing vs. WCK thread and created a new thread.

Victor, an advanced practitioner like you should already know the benefits of structure, so I assume you are playing Devil’s Advocate. The benefits are:

  1. Power
  2. Leverage
  3. to use the body optimally in unison or in parts
  4. Non-telegraphic delivery system
  5. control of the opponent’s balance
  6. opening of the “door” through pushing, pulling, wedging (i.e like pummeling, you set up your next moves)
  7. my system is easily replicable/duplicable, hence “scientific”
  8. I don’t just talk one part (i.e. elbows) but look at the organism as a whole
  9. my system doesn’t change any WCK forms, just makes them better
  10. my methodology fits in with all branches of WCK, since it is not based on form, As Hawkins said to me, “True WCK is formless.”
  11. Its not about the show or “style”, or how it looks like, but the power signature
  12. there is a great advantage with weapons, for example, you learn to properly use the body in conjunction with the long pole or knives - you need proper levelage when doing Tiu Gwun or Yee Ji Dao
  13. Application is your guide - so which opponent are you applying structure to? That is your work, not mine. In fact, that is every WCK student’s work.
  14. you can use body structure greatly against people with little or no structure; you will be the one in control. Of course, against equals, it becomes a contest of who is the one who uses it best at the moment
  15. I do not have to had Muay Thai, Boixing, or BJJ delivery base to make it work, making it a pseudo WCK or JKD. I keep WCK pure - it is about making WCK work.
  16. In most WCK you learn structure, but its more about the shape and looking like WCK…not necessarily the function of the structure

In my way, you are studying how to apply structure, make it work, and test it out - this way, you optimally use WCK

Its quite possible everyone in WCK can use my methods and keep their style, or even learn my method without having to learn WCK forms and system, just merge it with their fighting style.

In Traditional Chinese Martial arts, 1 component represents the complete teaching, one does not not having to learn everything piecemeal. I can teach 3 things that would change your perspective immediately. Even if you did not learn all of my curriculum and teaching methodology, you could still use my method immediately.

Finally, when you develop something “new”, you don’t just throw a name on it (a la JKD), you have to test it. My students and grandstudents have tested it out using my templates in the competition arena. In this way, we know it works.

2

Do you have any specific drills that enable a studnet to maintain structure when being pressured? Often this is the first to go.

3

[QUOTE=TenTigers;1013347]Do you have any specific drills that enable a studnet to maintain structure when being pressured? Often this is the first to go.[/QUOTE]

Even the strongest structure can be broken.. Thus you use this force (the one breaking it) to form a new one..

4

[QUOTE=YungChun;1013349]Even the strongest structure can be broken.. Thus you use this force (the one breaking it) to form a new one..[/QUOTE]

To establish an new structure by redirection, akin to some element of what Hendrik coined the boomerang effect?

5

[QUOTE=wtxs;1013354]To establish an new structure by redirection, akin to some element of what Hendrik coined the boomerang effect?[/QUOTE]

Not familiar with Hendrik’s idea.. But it sounds similar.. The force is breaking your structure or shape, so you use this force to make a new shape.. The purpose of the structure is to break his, so if yours is weakening (because it is breaking) then you must make a new one (the weakening one will never do it) to break his. The most efficient way to do this is to use his force to make your new structure..which should then be immediately focused on breaking his, most likely from a new angle..

6

[QUOTE=chusauli;1013345]I took this out of the boxing vs. WCK thread and created a new thread.

Victor, an advanced practitioner like you should already know the benefits of structure, so I assume you are playing Devil’s Advocate. The benefits are:

  1. Power
  2. Leverage
  3. to use the body optimally in unison or in parts
  4. Non-telegraphic delivery system
  5. control of the opponent’s balance
  6. opening of the “door” through pushing, pulling, wedging (i.e like pummeling, you set up your next moves)
  7. my system is easily replicable/duplicable, hence “scientific”
  8. I don’t just talk one part (i.e. elbows) but look at the organism as a whole
  9. my system doesn’t change any WCK forms, just makes them better
  10. my methodology fits in with all branches of WCK, since it is not based on form, As Hawkins said to me, “True WCK is formless.”
  11. Its not about the show or “style”, or how it looks like, but the power signature
  12. there is a great advantage with weapons, for example, you learn to properly use the body in conjunction with the long pole or knives - you need proper levelage when doing Tiu Gwun or Yee Ji Dao
  13. Application is your guide - so which opponent are you applying structure to? That is your work, not mine. In fact, that is every WCK student’s work.
  14. you can use body structure greatly against people with little or no structure; you will be the one in control. Of course, against equals, it becomes a contest of who is the one who uses it best at the moment
  15. I do not have to had Muay Thai, Boixing, or BJJ delivery base to make it work, making it a pseudo WCK or JKD. I keep WCK pure - it is about making WCK work.
  16. In most WCK you learn structure, but its more about the shape and looking like WCK…not necessarily the function of the structure

In my way, you are studying how to apply structure, make it work, and test it out - this way, you optimally use WCK

Its quite possible everyone in WCK can use my methods and keep their style, or even learn my method without having to learn WCK forms and system, just merge it with their fighting style.

In Traditional Chinese Martial arts, 1 component represents the complete teaching, one does not not having to learn everything piecemeal. I can teach 3 things that would change your perspective immediately. Even if you did not learn all of my curriculum and teaching methodology, you could still use my method immediately.

Finally, when you develop something “new”, you don’t just throw a name on it (a la JKD), you have to test it. My students and grandstudents have tested it out using my templates in the competition arena. In this way, we know it works.[/QUOTE]

Very good post…and I agree with all your points, especially point #16, and this is the main problem IMO with most WC out there, they are trying to look like the training, the drills and the shapes, becoming robots essentially. And when this is the case, and things are not working for you when you try to apply your WC skills in sparring or fighting, you look elsewhere to fill in the gaps or perceived deficiency in your WC skill set.

All the training can do for you is listed in the points above. The thing is not all WC has this, they may think they do but they don’t and it can be recognized when they move or show a video of themselves sparring or fighting. Point #13 - Application is your guide, what Robert says is true, no instructor/Sifu or coach can give you application skills, which is your ability to use what the training has given you (a set of skills) to a degree of effectiveness. There is a seperation between training and application. An instructor can give you the ability to develop the tools, like Robert says he can teach you 3 things and change your perspective immediately. I’ve experienced this as well, not in Roberts method but with the people I learn from. But it is up to the individual to become skilled at applying them, and that skill has nothing to do with how the shape of your tan sau appears (if it appears in the application at all), nor how good your YJKYMA is, rather it is about how well you control/strike and apply your tools to your opponent or partner in sparring. Also, your ability to apply these tools is based on two factors, your skills and the skills of your opponent. Like Robert says, against someone with little to know structure and skill it’s easy, against some with these abilites things change, and it’s in your ability to feel, sense, change and apply that makes the difference with people of equal or better skill, if you can do all of that faster you will defeat him.

Also, each individual practitoner has to determine what their intent is with their training. Are they doing it because they love it or because they want to fight with it vs other fighters, different intentions will bring about a different skill level and ability. It’s okay to change your intent as you become more mature with age and experience, as who really wants to be a fighter for their whole lives when there is so much more to appreciate about the art than that..just my POV:)

James

7

[QUOTE=YungChun;1013356]Not familiar with Hendrik’s idea.. But it sounds similar.. The force is breaking your structure or shape, so you use this force to make a new shape.. The purpose of the structure is to break his, so if yours is weakening (because it is breaking) then you must make a new one (the weakening one will never do it) to break his. The most efficient way to do this is to use his force to make your new structure..which should then be immediately focused on breaking his, most likely from a new angle..[/QUOTE]

Actually one of the skills learned is to recognize when your own structure is being broken. When you have a developed structure within you, you also should have the ability to sense when it is broken. The more you practice the better you can sense this happening to you, and the better you can change. The ability to change quickly is a skill not really talked about. If I can change faster than you, even if you have a better structure than me, I can still win. With change comes sensitivity and feeling, combined with an adaptable structure and natural flow with it all.

The shapes are just guides in the beginning, so the learner can visualize and realize what they are doing on a basic level. Later on the shapes are not as important nor are they as formed as they are in lets say a SNT level person. Everything is exaggerated in the beginning to bring about “Young Ideas”, later those young ideas become mature ideas and change. Going from one fully formed shape to another is way too slow, you form it only to the point you need it to at that moment and situation, to achieve the goal of hitting with an controlling element with that hit. If the control is not there that’s fine too but it’s more of a gamble as you might trade with your opponent. All fighting in the end is gambling, just that we try to sway the odds more in our favor with that controlling ability within our strikes and our ability to chase his Center Axis or spine.

James

8

Perhaps my questions aren’t clear?

I understand what you’re saying, Robert…but you see, I (and quite a few others) can say the same things about the wing chun we do.

For example, you listed the following, amoungst other things:

  1. Power
  2. Leverage
  3. to use the body optimally in unison or in parts
  4. Non-telegraphic delivery system
  5. control of the opponent’s balance

***OKAY, so TWC does these very same things with the “body structure” we use.

So the question is not about your tests - but rather it’s about how does the “body structure” you use differ from what TWC does, for example, and how do those differences translate into actual better fighting efficiency?

9

Victor,
This is what I think you’re trying to ask. You are asking how his “body structure” makes him different in sparring than other wing chun people. Would someone watching him spar be able to tell the difference? Would his sparring partner recognize this “body structure” a$$ kicking from a not so body structured a$$ kicking?

Is that what you’re trying to ask him? If not than I may not be the only confused person.

10

[QUOTE=chusauli;1013345] . . . .
15) I do not have to had Muay Thai, Boixing, or BJJ delivery base to make it work, making it a pseudo WCK or JKD. I keep WCK pure - it is about making WCK work.
. . . . .[/QUOTE]
I can see knowing ground work but I definitely agree that with regards to standup that you don’t need boxing, or Muay Thai, etc. You should be able to make your WCK work.

11

I believe I’m asking a very simple question…

…which has nothing to do with boxing, kickboxing, MT, or anything else - other than wing chun. So let’s not get sidetracked regarding what I’ve said in the past about wing chun being a short range fighting system.

And I will make the question as simple as possible, since I know that Robert attended two different week-long TWC seminars back in 1984 given by William Cheung - as I was there as well.

So let’s assume that long range/short range differences are not in play. There is no long distance whatsoever.

Two opponent’s begin in a non contact position, but only maybe about 20 inches apart from each other. To put it another way, they are both within one simple half step of being able to deliver strikes, bridges, whatever.

So given what you know about TWC, Robert…and of course your present system of “body structure” wing chun…

what is it about YOUR system’s body structure - as opposed to the TWC body structure…

that is not only different, but that would result in a better fighting efficiency?

…Very simple question…

12

Body structure = more b.s. from a bunch of theoretical non-fighters.

Every physical activity has the concept of body structure… from football, to baseball, to wrestling, to bjj, to judo, to basketball, to ballroom dance.

Body structure also changes depending on the circumstances.

Beginners in most activities pretty much learn it and then never have to give too much thought to it again after they get up into the intermediate levels.

Something is seriously wrong if “advanced” practitioners are spending a bunch of time worrying about structure.

13

Dude, you gotta trademark that "theoretical non-fighters) thing, its gold, gold I tell you !!!H
HW8 shoudl have trademarked “Authentic TCMA” and he didn’t, don’t make the same mistake !!

14

I’m gonna jump on the “Glorified TCMAist” TM

15

OK, I am going to show my ignorance but WTF is everyone going on about.

I did WCK but only for a short time. I have also wrestled, boxed, served in the Marine Corps, played football, baseball and now do no-gi BJJ and I have no clue what everyone is going on about.

Is it how you stand, your balance, positioning of body parts, what? Is anything like setting you base in bjj or wrestling? And if so doesn’t it change as you or your opponent move?

I am so confused!!! :confused::confused::confused:

16

[QUOTE=m1k3;1013387]OK, I am going to show my ignorance but WTF is everyone going on about.

I did WCK but only for a short time. I have also wrestled, boxed, served in the Marine Corps, played football, baseball and now do no-gi BJJ and I have no clue what everyone is going on about.

Is it how you stand, your balance, positioning of body parts, what? Is anything like setting you base in bjj or wrestling? And if so doesn’t it change as you or your opponent move?

I am so confused!!! :confused::confused::confused:[/QUOTE]

Same here I’d like to know as well, for an art that is usually advertised as simple and effective its practitioners can sure complicate the most basic things. Structure is taught in most athletic endeavours in the first class and reinforced and tested through practise…weight lifters learn the correct structure for lifting weights in the first few lessons…boxers the same, wrestlers the same …is it reinforced through cues whilst training in the beginning but this doesn’t take long to become second nature…how can people make something so simple so complicated

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[QUOTE=Frost;1013388]Same here I’d like to know as well, for an art that is usually advertised as simple and effective its practitioners can sure complicate the most basic things. Structure is taught in most athletic endeavours in the first class and reinforced and tested through practise…weight lifters learn the correct structure for lifting weights in the first few lessons…boxers the same, wrestlers the same …is it reinforced through cues whilst training in the beginning but this doesn’t take long to become second nature…how can people make something so simple so complicated[/QUOTE]

First of all Knifefighter beat you to this post..

Second, since when is any of this kind of BS new to TMA?

18

[QUOTE=m1k3;1013387]
Is it how you stand, your balance, positioning of body parts, what? Is anything like setting you base in bjj or wrestling? And if so doesn’t it change as you or your opponent move?
[/QUOTE]

That’s true… It’s not static, yet you would think otherwise from many of the posts..

The issue stems from the emphasis on the use of leveraged positions and vectored energy issuing, use of position and breaking all of it down in the opponent so you can attack and control.

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[QUOTE=Frost;1013388]how can people make something so simple so complicated[/QUOTE]

Theoretical non-fighters [tm] looking for the magic bullet.

20

If it was that simple there would be nothing to discuss…