Sooo...perhaps boxing and wing chun aren't so different after all?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

I was thinking about the various fists used in wing chun, and the boxing counterparts…just for shits and giggles…here’s what I came up with. I realize the punches aren’t exactly the same in terms details like power generation, the precise angles, linking, and etc…but from a general standpoint I’m figuring based on the closest equivelent (the = symbol should be considered “is likened to”)

Chung choi = jab / straight / cross
Wang choi = hook
Chou choi = uppercut
Joong lo choi = body shovel hook
Chaap choi = low jab / low straight to body

I realize that these punches aren’t exactly the same but it at least illustrates that wing chun does indeed have the tools necessary to do the job that some people are thinking boxing should be added for.

That said…most of the stuff from average folks seems to be mostly flailing around with bad technique, bad balance, bad everything. They go into a fish-on-land mode where they’re just flopping around and trading shots. Whereas the average boxer will still be trying to do what he trains to do while maintining composure and control.

So this begs to question…why isn’t “wing chun boxing” more effective for the average wing chun practicitioner? I realize that many here consider their wing chun to be a step above the average person’s, so that being the case–why can’t the average WC man perform as well as the average boxer in terms of fists? Why are the WC punches not as natural looking, as powerful, or as precise as the boxer’s?

In thinking about this, one of the things I’ve found about my personal iteration of wing chun over other people’s that I’ve come across is that my punching method is more natural. Meaning that the punches are simply whipping forward, sideways, upwards, and etc, as I need them. I don’t fret too much about whether my stance is perfectly angled, or whether the weight is on the balls or the heels, or whether my body is completely square facing in between exchanges. I make sure I’m balanced at all times, my feet are shoulder width, I make sure to try and use both hands at the same time–where one is attacking and the other is supporting or opening a path for the next punch.

In terms of training; hitting focus mitts using wing chun is only different from the respect that the elbow is down, and punches originate from the center or from where they were last in terms of combinations and the chin up inward with the head straight. Power of course still comes from the ground (albeit I’m more flat footed with wing chun ma). I train wing chun kuen on the heavy bag, much in the same way I train in boxing. Again taking into consideration the style’s differences in punching rules and stance/structure (elbows down, vertical fist, heels, joint linking, etc etc). I also don’t use boxing gloves when using wing chun styled punches on the bag, either using light MMA styled bag gloves. Wall bag is done with no gloves.

I do also train more classically, with all the boxing sets, the dummy, punching and kicking in the air, basic partner drills, weapon drills (don’t have the weapon sets in their entirety yet). So since I consider myself just average WC guy, what makes mine seemingly more successful in my sparring over another average guy’s? Perhaps I’m just boxing and calling it wing chun? lol (that’s a joke btw).

Anyway…just a question I was thinking about to myself. I thought I’d share.

2

[QUOTE=Vankuen;1012301] Perhaps I’m just boxing and calling it wing chun? lol

Anyway…just a question I was thinking about to myself. I thought I’d share.[/QUOTE]

Remember a while back I said you sounded like a boxer? :wink:

But seriously, there are differences in the structure… You can certainly do VT boxing, but are you doing VT boxing? The answer is in your structure, and how you use that structure, the centerline, an unbroken line of force, facing, following, using his resistance, etc..

I don’t think there is any secret to being more accurate, having better technique, etc.. When you fight, when you fight in competition for the first time, etc, things will degrade.. Some of these guys are still young in their training, etc.. Folks just need to keep training and hopefully training hard and training good mechanics and good “concepts”..

One of the things that gets me in some, but not all, of the fights is the lack of letting the hands go.. I see guys hesitating, not sure what to do, dropping their hands, etc.. The default in cases where you are unsure or flustered IMO should be to let their hands go and fire off some serious body power shots they must learn how to make this power… Perhaps that needs to be trained more.

But I would like to see more letting the hands go, its basic to VT IMO, to create that line of force…and do it accurately and powerfully and supported by structure.. Perhaps THAT should be the core of the training… over and over and over, like the Thais kick those pads and trees… VT striking must be trained and really trained well and often..

I think many of the classical elements (ChiSao/Dummy) are very good and vital for training (when done correctly–power–centerline–structure) too but a more narrow focus on fewer techniques might be the way to go.. (lose the lan sao leads, lose the tok sao palm cheats) keep it down to 4-6 GOOD moves, where power hitting, and release of power is paramount along with fan sao where folks maintain control and setting up the continuous release of power..

3

[QUOTE=YungChun;1012306]Remember a while back I said you sounded like a boxer? :wink:

But seriously, there are differences in the structure… I don’t think there is any secret to being more accurate, having better technique, etc.. When you fight, when you fight in competition for the first time, etc, things will degrade.. Some of these guys are still young in their training, etc.. Folks just need to keep training and hopefully training hard and training good mechanics and good “concepts”..

One of the things that gets me in some, but not all, of the fights is the lack of letting the hands go..

Perhaps THAT should be the core of the training… over and over and over, like the Thais kick those pads and trees… VT striking must be trained and really trained well and often…

…but a more narrow focus on fewer techniques might be the way to go.. (lose the lan sao leads, lose the tok sao palm cheats) keep it down to 4-6 GOOD moves, where power hitting, and release of power is paramount along with fan sao where folks maintain control and setting up the continuous release of power..[/QUOTE]

Good thoughts Jim. There are definitly differences in the structure. The similarities were to illustrate and imply that one may not need to incorporate boxing at all–but rather train wing chun in a more efficient manner.

You’re right too many folks don’t know what to do…and I think that’s because of a lack of familiarity with the task. Like you said, repetition. Let the hands go…be natural…go to town…something gets in the way move it, move him, or use your own footwork to move around it. Get in and get out. Adjust where need be, blah blah blah.

I also like the idea of keeping to a finite number of moves, working those and focusing first and foremost on proper structure. I also would like to say that elbow control needs to be in there like Kevin always says. Where’s the elbow control?! lol.

But yea good thoughts. I’m off to bed now…check back in tomorrow.

4

[QUOTE=Vankuen;1012308]
Get in and get out.
[/QUOTE]

Well ideally once in we want to stay there depending on the conditions, your elbow stuff wants to stay there.. If we are to be controlling via whatever methods we have to have contact, a bridge..

The striking is our bread and butter.. A good VT man’s strikes should be just as scary as a good boxer’s strikes except VT scary… :D:cool:

Folks need to learn how to strike from the ground if they don’t or can’t..and train it over and over and over and over, et al.

5

Not trying to be a butt hole, but I have great difficulty understanding the logic. I suppose that it might be because Wing Chun was the first form of fighting I had ever done, starting out at age 10 years. I did some boxing at the local boys club when in my teens, but have to admit that my boxing was a bit unorthodox. I did it with the WC flair. I got yelled at lots by coaches and such, but could not shake the WC style. Other boxers said that I was difficult to fight me because of it.
I think most WC people early on find it to be very un-natural feeling. I think that is because they have been exposed to the boxing culture early on. Learning the machanics then becomes awkward. The few people I have taught have complained early on that it was extremely awkward and hard to do for them. The elbow thing especially, and the footwork.
Most wanted to throw hooks and roundhouse punches, but these have many problems. A roundhouse usually sends a telegraph before departure, and a hook is woefully short. The longest reach is with a straight punch, and to hook one must curve the arm, which shortens it considerably. Also, you can not put your full potential behind a hook. I have found that I can throw a punch from the chamber and issue as great a force as I can from a wind up, and with far greater accuracy, and far less chance of injuring myself in the process. Not to mention also that I can throw one after another with almost blinding speed. I say almost because I am getting old.
So, I really think it might be dependent upon where you have been and what you have been doing before starting your WC training. You have to be completely convinced that it will work for you and you have to be fully committed to it. Otherwise you will have reservations and little faith in it. You will feel awkward and immediately want to jump back to doing what feels more comfortable to you, such as western boxing. Could that possibly be where you are at right now?

6

[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1012459]Not trying to be a butt hole, but I have great difficulty understanding the logic. I suppose that it might be because Wing Chun was the first form of fighting I had ever done, starting out at age 10 years. I did some boxing at the local boys club when in my teens, but have to admit that my boxing was a bit unorthodox. I did it with the WC flair. I got yelled at lots by coaches and such, but could not shake the WC style. Other boxers said that I was difficult to fight me because of it.
I think most WC people early on find it to be very un-natural feeling. I think that is because they have been exposed to the boxing culture early on. Learning the machanics then becomes awkward. The few people I have taught have complained early on that it was extremely awkward and hard to do for them. The elbow thing especially, and the footwork.
Most wanted to throw hooks and roundhouse punches, but these have many problems. A roundhouse usually sends a telegraph before departure, and a hook is woefully short. The longest reach is with a straight punch, and to hook one must curve the arm, which shortens it considerably. Also, you can not put your full potential behind a hook. I have found that I can throw a punch from the chamber and issue as great a force as I can from a wind up, and with far greater accuracy, and far less chance of injuring myself in the process. Not to mention also that I can throw one after another with almost blinding speed. I say almost because I am getting old.
So, I really think it might be dependent upon where you have been and what you have been doing before starting your WC training. You have to be completely convinced that it will work for you and you have to be fully committed to it. Otherwise you will have reservations and little faith in it. You will feel awkward and immediately want to jump back to doing what feels more comfortable to you, such as western boxing. Could that possibly be where you are at right now?[/QUOTE]

i don’t know where to begin: roundhouses are telegraphed… straight punches reach longer than round ones…you can’t throw long hooks or my personal favourite you can’t put your full potential behind a hook…:eek:

7

[QUOTE=Frost;1012461]i don’t know where to begin: roundhouses are telegraphed… straight punches reach longer than round ones…you can’t throw long hooks or my personal favourite you can’t put your full potential behind a hook…:eek:[/QUOTE]

Everyone knows boxers don’t throw any straight punches. Just wild roundhouse punches and hooks that don’t reach. No wonder WC fighters hold the championships in almost every boxing weight class.:rolleyes:

8

[QUOTE=YungChun;1012310]Well ideally once in we want to stay there depending on the conditions, your elbow stuff wants to stay there.. If we are to be controlling via whatever methods we have to have contact, a bridge..

The striking is our bread and butter.. A good VT man’s strikes should be just as scary as a good boxer’s strikes except VT scary… :D:cool:

Folks need to learn how to strike from the ground if they don’t or can’t..and train it over and over and over and over, et al.[/QUOTE]

Striking from the ground is even further away from WC than what you see with most standing striking.

9

[QUOTE=Frost;1012461]i don’t know where to begin: roundhouses are telegraphed… straight punches reach longer than round ones…you can’t throw long hooks or my personal favourite you can’t put your full potential behind a hook…:eek:[/QUOTE]

Every time that guy posts, he pretty much demonstrates that he knows nothing about fighting.

10

[QUOTE=Vankuen;1012301]

In terms of training; hitting focus mitts using wing chun is only different from the respect that the elbow is down, [/QUOTE]

Boxers don’t fight with the elbows up.

As far as power development, that is mostly a factor of how much body rotation you apply when you throw strikes. The more body rotation, the more power (think shotputters, discuss throwers, baseball players- both hitting and throwing, etc).

In unarmed combat, there is a trade-off between the power needed that comes from body rotation and the necessity not to overexpose oneself that comes with complete rotation.

11

[QUOTE=m1k3;1012465]Everyone knows boxers don’t throw any straight punches. Just wild roundhouse punches and hooks that don’t reach. No wonder WC fighters hold the championships in almost every boxing weight class.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

lol true i wish people would stop commentating on things they don’t have any experience in:)

12

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1012472]Every time that guy posts, he pretty much demonstrates that he knows nothing about fighting.[/QUOTE]

So since you are such a skilled fighter, tell me just how you are going to get full power behind a hook, seeing as how you can not get behind one to begin with. It comes from the side with nothing more then it’s speed and poor leverage. The speed might multiply the force of the arm, which might weigh a few pounds in your case, but that only amounts to far less then your own physical weight. And leverage from that angle is poor at best, so please tell me just how you can get your full potential behind a hook. You can’t.

13

[QUOTE=Frost;1012478]lol true i wish people would stop commentating on things they don’t have any experience in:)[/QUOTE]

I never stated that boxers don’t toss a straight punch now and then, but from EXPERIENCE, I can tell you that it is not the norm with the average boxer. Most everyone tries to box unless they have some other martial training. Seems natural because that is all that they grow up knowing about usually. I have had a few years of boxing. Not professional, all amature, but I have done some boxing. I have had upward of between 200 and 300 fights in my life, so I can speak with some experience here, while most of you might have had a few fights in a ring maybe. So I just might have far more experience than most of you combined. And in particular the monkey kung foo guy calling himself Dale.

14

[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1012488]So since you are such a skilled fighter, tell me just how you are going to get full power behind a hook, seeing as how you can not get behind one to begin with. It comes from the side with nothing more then it’s speed and poor leverage. The speed might multiply the force of the arm, which might weigh a few pounds in your case, but that only amounts to far less then your own physical weight. And leverage from that angle is poor at best, so please tell me just how you can get your full potential behind a hook. You can’t.[/QUOTE]

How about like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiqaAehf1VA

15

[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1012491]I never stated that boxers don’t toss a straight punch now and then, but from EXPERIENCE, I can tell you that it is not the norm with the average boxer. Most everyone tries to box unless they have some other martial training. Seems natural because that is all that they grow up knowing about usually. I have had a few years of boxing. Not professional, all amature, but I have done some boxing. I have had upward of between 200 and 300 fights in my life, so I can speak with some experience here, while most of you might have had a few fights in a ring maybe. So I just might have far more experience than most of you combined. And in particular the monkey kung foo guy calling himself Dale.[/QUOTE]

lol sorry but nothing you say makes me think you know anything about boxing, hooks are some of the hardest punches going, you transfer you whole body from the ground into the fist through a solid structure, a majority of knockouts in boxing come from hooks and uppercuts

16

[QUOTE=m1k3;1012492]How about like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiqaAehf1VA[/QUOTE]

lol owned :slight_smile:

17

The system is developing good elbow positions thus making the forearms the parrying areas, IOW the acute angles of the elbows in pre-striking positions or ‘not extended’ strikes makes them [forearm area] act as a second set of hands, making it possible for the fist/palms to strike at the same time the correct forearm side is used to slide in or past a simultaneously deflected arm.
Further because the strikes naturally intersect along X-ed angles we create by naturally flanking we can simply strike in with lat sao chit chung to explode off arms untrained like ours and fire into openings without withdrawing the hands or hesitating to think ‘hit’. Allowing us to maintain constant pressure of cycling strikes regardless of what is done to the lead arm.

Why our juts are done with the forearms underneath, the tan elbow spreads making the outside forearm push force outwards as the hand strike forwards…the jum elbow inwards, keeps the forearm inward too to use the same ideas…
While attacking each arm tan & jum will create the same force directions iow our left tan right jum striking in either rotation will create a line of force to shut down a guys left side …

elbows control the alignment and make the hands free to parry to the line or strike, rather than the force we use go out to the hands and wrists traveling laterally , while we need the wu sao to make the strike alone…

subtle but one cant strike and defend with the same striking arm if the elbows aren’t trained early on…but a guy trained in the elbow idea can do both ways as required…simultaneous as elbow training allows or coupled striking arm AND pak, jut, gaun etc…

dont understand ? you should ; )

18

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1012475]Boxers don’t fight with the elbows up.

As far as power development, that is mostly a factor of how much body rotation you apply when you throw strikes. The more body rotation, the more power (think shotputters, discuss throwers, baseball players- both hitting and throwing, etc).

In unarmed combat, there is a trade-off between the power needed that comes from body rotation and the necessity not to overexpose oneself that comes with complete rotation.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps I wasn’t clear in the text you quoted. Boxers don’t fight with their elbows up…but they don’t punch in vertical fists with the elbows down either (save for certain folk’s method of jabbing). But that’s what I’m talking about with “elbows down”.

19

[QUOTE=Vankuen;1012503]Perhaps I wasn’t clear in the text you quoted. Boxers don’t fight with their elbows up…but they don’t punch in vertical fists with the elbows down either (save for certain folk’s method of jabbing). But that’s what I’m talking about with “elbows down”.[/QUOTE]

Van, a good boxing jab or cross should be elbows down up to the near the end when the fist turns over. When I was learning to box, throwing a jab or a cross with the elbows up was referred to as chicken winging it, and it was not considered a good thing.

20

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1012472]Every time that guy posts, he pretty much demonstrates that he knows nothing about fighting.[/QUOTE]

Guess you’re kindred spirits then…