Also, remember that all WC sparring videos are met with comments like “That’s not WC”, “My lineage is better” or “You’re doing it wrong”.
[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1015509]If wc sifus did not teach forms and other classical ways they would not have nothing to teach. If they taught in a way that gave skills like the way T just described this would force them to actually have to do something. Since they don’t teach real fighting they can sit on the side and instruct, teach imaginary techniques that “look” like they fit in the form, show basic hand drills, never explain or show how to actually use anything in combat, and finally make vague statements about fighting and martial arts in general. My old teacher used to tell me, “I can’t teach you how to survive fights the way I have. I can’t teach my mind set. I can only show you patterns and you need to figure it out.”
The logical question that follows should be, “Then why the fuk are you claiming to be teaching combat and claiming that wc is for combat?”
The above statement goes for all form oriented martial arts/teachers.[/QUOTE]
Your old teacher was absolutely right. He could teach you the concepts and the weapons of WC, but he can not teach you a mind frame. If you don't have what it takes to pop someone full in the face, you will not every have it. You have to have a conviction to what you are doing. He can not make you a fighting machine, and neither can any MMA coach. That is strictly up to you.
One very good way to test his ability to fight is to slap him in the face and jump on him. That way you could see just how effective his WC is. Don’t wait for a video to show you, find out for yourself.
[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1015509]If wc sifus did not teach forms and other classical ways they would not have nothing to teach. If they taught in a way that gave skills like the way T just described this would force them to actually have to do something. Since they don’t teach real fighting they can sit on the side and instruct, teach imaginary techniques that “look” like they fit in the form, show basic hand drills, never explain or show how to actually use anything in combat, and finally make vague statements about fighting and martial arts in general. My old teacher used to tell me, “I can’t teach you how to survive fights the way I have. I can’t teach my mind set. I can only show you patterns and you need to figure it out.”
The logical question that follows should be, “Then why the fuk are you claiming to be teaching combat and claiming that wc is for combat?”
The above statement goes for all form oriented martial arts/teachers.[/QUOTE]
You need to understand what your developing in the first place…forms are simply solo time away from fighting. To refine line/elbow work without someone attacking you as you try.
The system relies on acute alignment drills to refine the ability to maintain strike integrity as you meet other forces or cut into available angles from your opponents movement while fighting. Distancing maintenance for delivering attacking force either coming or going …many dont know this way of vt training so they get patchwork ideas and told to make sense of the arm shapes etc..ending up with a ‘self-defense’ using vt ‘way’ then they do sparring that turns into kickboxing with a bong, centerpunches and low kick and the ubiquitous pak sao ! Or they try to make the chi-sao drill work as it does with partners , because they cant make it work at any other way when sparring, so they seek to control by adopting the drill they feel comfortable in, from training so long without understanding why they are doing it, or what parts are redundant to actual fighting using VT.
Fighting with VT is the goal. It goes beyond a lead leg chain punch attack moving back and forth seeking a controlling clinch.
; )
Originally Posted by MysteriousPower
If wc sifus did not teach forms and other classical ways they would not have nothing to teach. If they taught in a way that gave skills like the way T just described this would force them to actually have to do something. Since they don’t teach real fighting they can sit on the side and instruct, teach imaginary techniques that “look” like they fit in the form, show basic hand drills, never explain or show how to actually use anything in combat, and finally make vague statements about fighting and martial arts in general. My old teacher used to tell me, “I can’t teach you how to survive fights the way I have. I can’t teach my mind set. I can only show you patterns and you need to figure it out.”
The logical question that follows should be, “Then why the fuk are you claiming to be teaching combat and claiming that wc is for combat?”
The above statement goes for all form oriented martial arts/teachers.
http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=57
Opinion: Why Wing Chun Doesn’t Work
As a prelude to this piece I will say this: Anyone who learned, trained, and fought with Wing Chun for a long period of time should understand some truths of the art. I do not discredit anyone’s experiences or call anyone or any lineage the “true” one. Yip Man taught everyone differently, but this is what my research indicates. I don’t mean to offend anyone or their lineage, I am in the same boat you are!
Wing Chun now is bashed by many as a crappy and ineffective martial art, despite what it claims. These same people usually promote grappling, boxing, muay thai, and other arts that are seen in popular MMA venues… And for the most part they are right. 97% of the “Wing Chun” and Wing Chun practitioners out there suck are are an embarrassment to the Art. I include all forms of the art from JKD to Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun, BlitzDefense, and etc. Just start looking at some of the Wing Chun clips on the net and you’ll see in almost all the real fights or MMA fights that Wing Chun people are getting their ass beat. And don’t tell me your lineage is better, I guarantee you that 95%+ of them would get their ass beat just as badly. I used to be proud to be known as a Wing Chun guy, now it is getting to be embarrassing.
Why is this? 1) People don’t train hard enough to actually fight a trained fighter or a enraged, tough, and/or savvy street fighter. They can only beat other Wing Chun people up, classmates up, or other non-fighters. (Big Fish, little pond). 2) Wing Chun is for the most part watered down and a lost art. It’s a empty shell. As Yip Man told Allan Lee, “It only looks like Wing Chun but it has no substance”. And this is how Yip Man wanted it - he never sold out his true art.
Some people have either consciously or subconsciously realized this and tried to fill in the gaps with other tools/arts, but this is usually only slightly better, if not a lot worse. Others stubbornly stick to a “Pure” Wing Chun, but these purists are usually the ones getting their asses beat and giving the art a bad name. It is not always their fault, in principle they are right. Wing Chun, as a complete art, should be able to handle any type of fighter it faces. But the guys who modify Wing Chun to work for them are also right - why practice something that will get you beat up?
“Although Yip Man had multitudes of students… the number of formal disciples he accecpted could be counted on three fingers on one hand. To these few who pledged their fidelity in the ritual of three kneels nine kowtows in the traditional SiFu Worship Ceremony he taught Wing Chun Wugong. This includes Wing Chun Kung Fu plus Gongli, the art of exerting power, plus the practical application of Wing Chun fighting techniques…” Wing Chun Warrior
Yip Man said he passed on the complete knowledge to 5 people ONLY. The rest of his disciples and students only got the “empty shell” (This means you and your lineage (Sorry)). Sure, Yip Man’s private students know all the forms and a lot of techniques, and drills, but the real system contains so much more. It required years of very tough training, a lot of pressure on the disciple, and years of sacrifice on top of mastering everything Yip Man taught to his private students. I don’t want to bash any lineages or Sifus here, but the more Wing Chun I see the more I am convinced that this is right. Yip Man did not teach the entire art to anyone he trained publicly, or any of his publicly known private students/“disciples”. He only taught about 1/2 of it. I don’t even think his real students even trained with the public classes. So if your teacher learned in a classroom setting (even if it was private later on), then they probably fall into this group. Learning the other half of the system meant training daily with Yip Man in person for about 4-5 years on top of the rest. These Sifus who say they know it all and trained privately with Yip Man for 9 months, 2x a week, or even a year 7x a week, etc… They were not formal disciples, only private students. They are missing a lot. And now, so are we.
Yip Man let 9 people fight for his Hong Kong school. (Not including the 5 he passed the complete system on to - these 9 included Wong Shun Leung, Lok Yiu, Taun Hong, etc.). These fighters took that “empty shell” and made it work for them… for the most part. Most evidence points to the fact the Wing Chun fighters only did okay in the challange matches. They usually got just as beat up as their opponents and there was no clear cut winner. Even Wong Shun Leung. In his very highly publicized match with White Crane master Ni Wo-tang there was no clear cut winner and both combatants were bleeding. As everyone said, it was a boring match.
Therefore, in my opinion Yip Man had 14 “fighters” at the end of his life, 3-5 of which knew the complete system. Of these 5, the last true masters of the Art, only 1 or 2 have passed down their complete knowledge to date. The training is extremely hard and tough, and people now-a-days want instant kung-fu. It is my belief that this generation of masters will be the last, and I’m not alone in this thought. No one trains 6 hours a day with a dedicated teacher for the 5-7 years it takes to master this system the way it was meant to be.
So what can we do about it? Unless you are related to one of the 5 true inheritors of the system, in my opinion all you can do is train what you are given, and fight. Get better, fix your mistakes, fill in your gaps, and fight some more. Be like WSL, Bruce Lee, and etc. Take what you know and learn to make it work for you.
Yip Man once asked, “Do you think you can learn something from a famous SiFu?” He went on to explain that just because he is famous it doesn’t mean that you can learn something worthwhile from him.
He gave a scenario. Suppose Yim Wing Chun comes alive to teach you and it turns out what you learn is not practical for use in a real fight. It’s outdated and useless. Then someone who is nobody shows you some Wing Chun technique that really works in a fight. Which do you think is better?
He also asked one of his formal disciples once, “Do you belive everything I say?”
The disciple replied, “Of course.”
Yip Man then said, “If you believe everything I say then you will never become a good fighter”.
“Why shouldn’t I belive you? You are my SiFu”
“Try [the techniques I teach you] out for yourself. And when you have a problem I will correct it”.
Yip Man would say not to blindly believe everything he said. He wanted you to do your own research using common sense with his teachings as a guideline. After all, how do you know you are not being cheated? (Boy, this sure applies to today’s world of Wing Chun). Yip Man told all of his students to go out and fight (and a few actually did, but not most, and not most of the ones teaching today). How many people do this today vs how many are teaching Wing Chun as if they know something?
Yip Man also had the habit of telling all of his student they were right. Even during his lifetime most of his senior students were using the hands and techniques differently. They all thought they were right. Most never took his advice and didn’t believe him. They should have tested their Wing Chun as he told them to. Even his own son did not.
“Application is the only way to verify the truth”
Of course you have to respect your SiFu. Use your common sense. Accept what they say, research it. Test it. Don’t mystify the art. If you can’t see it, and if you can’t feel it, then how do you know it is correct and practical? Go fight with it, this is the only way to understand.
Interestingly, if you want to have a vague discussion about WCK ask Terrence about how employ WCK in a fight or just talk about fight strategies in general for that matter.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1015659]Interestingly, if you want to have a vague discussion about WCK ask Terrence about how employ WCK in a fight or just talk about fight strategies in general for that matter.[/QUOTE]
Strategy is general by its very nature – it is a general plan for fighting.
How you carry out that plan will depend on what your opponent does. So you can’t talk about how to specifically do it since it depends on what your opponent does.
In a nutshell, WCK’s strategy is to get in and control the opponent while striking him. It starts with a certain body structure or way of using your body since if you don’t have that, there is no way to control your opponent. Do you have that? Because if not, anything else I tell you won’t make any sense.
[QUOTE=Hitman;1015655]http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=57[/QUOTE]
Wonder why I dumped so many years training with a direct student of YM for a guy who learned from WSL directly in HK…? He had been taught something completely different
same parts of the puzzle, forms etc…but with elbow explanations 
how to connect the dots.
dont believe me ? up to you to find out. walk on…
No all sifu’s teach WC as a PURELY fighting system, some teach it as an art and some teach it as a means of self protection.
Not ALL students WANT to b fighters or l;earning a fighting system, fact is the vast majority do NOT want that.
MA teachers need to be realistic in regards to WHO their MA is attracting, boxing, MT coaches, for example, don’t really need to deal with that because their systems tend to attract people that want to fight.
There are WC Sifu’s that teach a “pure fighting” system, but like most TMA teachers, they are the minority.
[QUOTE=Hitman;1015655]http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=57[/QUOTE]
Let me guess, Hitman…your Sifu was one of those who “got the real deal.”. Where have I heard this story before?? It smacks of self promoting bs.
You want the truth? I studied with Yip Man and got the whole story. I just didn’t want to write a huge article about it. J/K.
These secret gong li techniques are what exactly? Superpushups? Let me guess it is some super secret nei gong method. Push ups are better than any nei gong/qi gong method.
Funny thing is, if you believe this piece of info within that write-up, you may as well believe anything!
Yip Man is said to have spread the knowledge among 5 of his public students as well each giving them 1/5th and telling them if they ever got their act together and stopped bickering they’d figure the system out. They never figured it out, but the 5 were supposedly: Wong Shun Leung, Chu Shong Tin (he got the internal aspects), Duncan Leung (external, condition, power generation, and swords), Hawkins Cheung, and Allan Lee.
Very smart, HitMan,…
…but not smart enough.
Smart because you lay out some unpleasant but true facts that many, many people have come to know to be true through the years - that Yip Man only gave out bits and pieces of wing chun to various people - and that very few people got all of his wing chun knowledge.
But not smart enough when you then decide to tell us exactly who got what.
To say that WSL didn’t get all of the “power generation” fighting method is a complete joke.
To not even put William Cheung’s name on the “list of 5” is another complete joke.
To say that Duncan Leung and Alan Lee got wing chun knowledge passed onto them that neither William nor Wong got is a complete joke.
And there are others besides these two that you leave off YOUR list who should be there.
Not that I’m disparaging Duncan Leung or Alan Lee - far from it. I know of Duncan’s fighting skills, for example, for 35 years now. And in recent years I’ve seen vids of Alan Lee and his students in action and there’s no doubt he’s very good (I also have a number of Duncan’s vids that prove the same thing).
But I also know that it was after Duncan saw William Cheng defeat multiple opponents in a streetfight that Duncan decided he wanted to learn wing chun.
And that Duncan started his wing chun training (before going to Yip Man) with Ng Chan - another name that does not appear on your list but should be there.
And I also know (because I witnessed it with my own two eyes) that Duncan is THE ONLY HIGH RANKING WING CHUN MAN who was willing to acknowledge William Cheung’s abilities AFTER William went public with TRADITIONAL WING CHUN (TWC)…
before that anyone who knew anything about Yip Man’s students acknowledged that William Cheung was a great wing chun fighter - but after his claims about what TWC was and who he (William) was in the eyes of Yip Man (his successor)…
virtually every one of Yip Man’s students shunned William: BUT NOT DUNCAN.
He came to the Saturday session of William Cheung’s first NYC seminar in February, 1984 (and made a special trip to do it since by then Duncan was no longer living in NY state)…and he stayed the entire day…and clearly was showing his respects to William Cheung.
Just one example of the part of your post that’s bull5hit.
I’ll leave it to others to expose more.
I noticed that Allan Lee, Duncan Leung, and Lok Yui were mentioned multiple time and I guess everyone else was under etc. Could that be because Allan studied with those 2? Yep.
That part where each disciple was taught 1/5 smacks of a Shaw Brothers movie. Hitman, you actually believed this fairytale? Please say no.
I have heard it from a few sources that William Cheung was the best fighter to come out of the Yip Man school. It’s funny that he never talked about this so called body structure that plagues the wing chun world currently. I also heard that Hawkins learned it secretly from Yip Man and that Yip only chi saoed with people he liked, Hawkins being one of them. William Cheung lived with the old man…and the old man did not show him body structure or chi sao with him? BS. I think that Hawkins just combined his training from tai chi with wing chun and that is partly where this body structure bs secret came from. The longer we as a community propogate this making up stories the longer the joke will be on us.
I am butchering my own thread!! Back to the real topic.
If we had more video of all those rooftop fights from the Hong Kong Yip Man days I think it would be very telling on how wc was ACTUALLY used in fighting. I have only seen a 5 second clip of Bruce Lee during one a “fight.”. I put fight in quotes because it could have been a gathering of friends. Who knows. But actual footage would be nice. I think it would show wc for what it is: A different flair of kickboxing or kickboxing with extra tricks in it.
Victor, do you have access to any old footage via William Cheung?
I did not write it
Ultimatewingchun & MysteriousPower,
I did not write this article, please address your problems to the writer who actually wrote it.
http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/...d=12&Itemid=57
That part where each disciple was taught 1/5 smacks of a Shaw Brothers movie. Hitman, you actually believed this fairytale? Please say no.
NO, I do not believe it.
Hitman,
sorry about that. My remarks were toward the article and not you.
Yes, I know you didn’t write it - but why did you post it?
What was the purpose of doing that?
[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1015740]
I have heard it from a few sources that William Cheung was the best fighter to come out of the Yip Man school. It’s funny that he never talked about this so called body structure that plagues the wing chun world currently. I also heard that Hawkins learned it secretly from Yip Man and that Yip only chi saoed with people he liked, Hawkins being one of them. William Cheung lived with the old man…and the old man did not show him body structure or chi sao with him? BS. I think that Hawkins just combined his training from tai chi with wing chun and that is partly where this body structure bs secret came from. The longer we as a community propogate this making up stories the longer the joke will be on us.
[/QUOTE]
Mysterious,
How is Body Structure BS? Please tell us. WCK is not powered by the body? And please tell us how it is Tai Ji Quan.
Also, what is your real name? Whom did you learn from?
Also, Yip Man didn’t use the term “Body Structure” - he probably used “Tai Lik” (Body Power) or other terms.
Many thanks. I look forward to your reply.
Tai chi, hsing I, and ba gua always talk about body structure. I believe that practicioners of these “internal” styles were the first to talk about tucking the tailbone and then others borrowed it.
I do not think body structure is bs but I think that spending time training it is utter nonsense. In judo and shuai jiao they do not spend time pushing on each other to see if they can withstand the push in a static stance. They just throw each other! A first year judo man would destroy a frat year wc man.
My name and who I studied with is inimportant as I am not promoting any products/services and do not represent my teachers. My opinion is not any less right or wrong based on my resume.
WC spends years doing drills that are fit for toddlers. The curriculum that T speaks of us overused and in many cases outdated.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1015761]Also, Yip Man didn’t use the term “Body Structure” - he probably used “Tai Lik” (Body Power) or other terms.[/QUOTE]
He also probably didn’t use that term either 
I’ve mentioned this before too. The term is a cool one, as the idea of body structure alone has helped to highlight issues with robotic, and dare I say, videotape Sifus who may have never touched hands with a skilled Sifu!
BUT I would be more interested in what Ip Man DID call it, as I know that it was shown to most of his earlier students. There are more than a few stories of Lee Shing alone throwing people around like rag dolls during practise due to his understanding of this little idea.
[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1015767]WC spends years doing drills that are fit for toddlers. The curriculum that T speaks of us overused and in many cases outdated.[/QUOTE]
Although you may not want to share your history, it is clear from this statement that you have not had access to a skilled Sifu in Wing Chun.
I’m sorry for your unfortunate misunderstanding of Wing Chun.
Lol. I guess since my opinins do not fit your wc world view my sifu was not skillful and neither am I.
Have you touched hands with a skillful wc sifu? Are you skillful.
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Then put up a video of yourself sparring with wc. All such arguments fall apart when the video challenge is thrown.