Using the Five Elements to teach Wing Chun

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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I’ve been a bit distracted recently, getting involved in the ‘fight or flight’ argument all too often :frowning: So I thought it was a good time to share a topic I posted on Renes WCK site, to see what you all think of the idea of using traditional, cultural concepts to assist in the teaching of Wing Chun.

When I was first studying Wing Chun our teacher used to discuss very basic principles connected to the five elements and how we can highlight different approaches to teaching basics using this common Chinese theory.

During my time I learnt how to teach in five different ways, which are:

1. How To Learn
2. How To Practice
3. How To Gain Skill
4. How to Use
5. How To Change

These methods rotate in cycles, and from my experience you can start practically anywhere , although some ways are slower/faster than others. Also, if you look at the way in which a School teaches, it’s main purpose and aims, it will almost definitely fit in to one of the elements, if not all of them.

The first cycle is intended to start with Learning How To Learn, and if you’re a ‘fighter’ you may prefer the How To Use approach more :wink:

Here is an example of the first stage in understanding how to approach learning ‘how to learn’ Wing Chun, or any Martial Art for that matter imho.

Learning How To Learn

My training at Jun Mo involved many varieties of learning, and at the time it just seemed like an endless barrage of information and pressure on my little frame. But I took it. Once I had time to sit down and write my notes, I realized that it wasn’t that much at all really. Varied practise, but the same theme, same way. I have already highlighted the 5 Elements of learning, basically making sense out of chaos is needed.

[I]So, how does the Wing Chun practitioner ‘learn how to learn?’

By understanding the construct of Wing Chun[/I]

[B]The Construct of Wing Chun

  1. Form
  2. Equipment
  3. Interaction
  4. Weaponry
  5. Study[/B]

Any thoughts? Advice? Criticism?

I’m all ears…

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All of that is nonsense.

Those are not the 5 elements of Chinese “cosmology” (earth, metal, wood, etc.) – and there is an intricate theory that goes along with those (theory of production/destruction, etc.). The 5 elements theory is bulls1t.

Using silly “concepts” to teach is silly. If you do some research into Chinese pedagogy (teaching methods), you will find that it is universally recognized as trash by experts in the education field. This is not surprising since the Chinese culture opposes change and innovation, opposes questioning of fundamentals, etc.

Why use out-dated, fantasy “concepts” to teach when we can use proven teaching and training methods – the sport model – that has been proven scientifically to be an optimal way to learn and develop motor skills, and that has proven by results (in athletics) to be an optimal way to learn and develop skill?

Look at boxing, MT, judo, sambo, MMA, etc. and how they teach and train as a model. They got it right.

The only “drawback” of the sport model is that it involves actually doing the activity itself as the core of the training. But, if you are one of those that simply don’t want to fight and only want to pretend, then sport-type training would not be for you.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1060667]All of that is nonsense.

Those are not the 5 elements of Chinese “cosmology” (earth, metal, wood, etc.) – and there is an intricate theory that goes along with those (theory of production/destruction, etc.). The 5 elements theory is bulls1t.[/QUOTE]

I expected nothing less of you T :smiley:

Again, it’s good to hear your thoughts and critique. Thing is, this IS Five Element theory that assists teaching. It does originate from more traditional, or dare I say it, ancient ways of thinking that you may think has it’s faults but I know it is a robust, proven way of teaching and naturally developing the human body. Put simply, it fits directly into Martial Arts. Always has, and always will imho. And it has nothing to do with Communism dude! :eek:

You obviously didn’t appreciate Roberts TCM, as this is fundamental to diagnostics for accupuncture and herbal treatments (which you probably don’t appreciate either)

Your sporting example can be put into this quite easily.

Why do you want to learn? To fight.
So you must learn to use it? Yes
And so you must also learn how to learn, practise and gain skill FIRST!

What I have seen on many, many occassions are students who try to force their hand, push in their techs as they have just not developed properly over time. They have jumped straight into trying to use it! That, imho, is not only dangerous but ridiculous ‘fast food’ type expectations.

There is no quick fix if you want to develop naturally. That, I find, is what having good kung fu is all about :wink:

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1060670]I expected nothing less of you T :smiley:

Again, it’s good to hear your thoughts and critique. Thing is, this IS Five Element theory that assists teaching. It does originate from more traditional, or dare I say it, ancient ways of thinking that you may think has it’s faults but I know it is a robust, proven way of teaching and naturally developing the human body. Put simply, it fits directly into Martial Arts. Always has, and always will imho. And it has nothing to do with Communism dude! :eek:
[/QUOTE]

Point me to a link that shows this 5 Element way of teaching (that is not a part of your lineage).

And point me to ONE person who has used this theory to develop any PROVEN significant level of fighting skill.

You obviously didn’t appreciate Roberts TCM, as this is fundamental to diagnostics for accupuncture and herbal treatments (which you probably don’t appreciate either)

I don’t doubt that acupuncture is useful in some circumstances. I have had acupuncture treatments (by Robert, no less). But just because the treatment may work, it doesn’t follow that the ancient “theory” behind it is correct. It’s not. The 5 Element theory is nonsense, it doesn’t reflect reality (how the human body or the universe) really works.

Your sporting example can be put into this quite easily.

Why do you want to learn? To fight.
So you must learn to use it? Yes
And so you must also learn how to learn, practise and gain skill FIRST!

What I have seen on many, many occassions are students who try to force their hand, push in their techs as they have just not developed properly over time. They have jumped straight into trying to use it! That, imho, is not only dangerous but ridiculous ‘fast food’ type expectations.

There is no quick fix if you want to develop naturally. That, I find, is what having good kung fu is all about :wink:

No, you’ve not seen anyone train WCK like they train sports. And this isn’t about any “quick fix.” The sport model of training takes advantage of how human beings BEST learn and develop physical and athletic skills.

TMAists don’t want to accept that – even though the evidence overwhelmingly demonstrates it – for three main reasons. First, many people are attracted to the TMAs by the nonsense (they want to believe in the fantasy - like that you can develop fighting skills by not fighting). Second, they didn’t learn via the sport-model so they have no idea of how to teach/train that way. And third, the sport-model of training makes doing the activity itself the core of the training.

That last point is extremely threatening to most people in TMAs and WCK. It’s threatening to instructors since it will expose their genuine level of skill (that is their lack of skill) and will cost them students since many, if not most, people are attracted to the TCMAs precisely because those arts don’t involve fighting. I mean, if you told prospective students the truth, that they can only develop skill by fighting, and that their skill level will essentially depend on how often they take beatings, most people wouldn’t take their classes.

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If you don’t already know, I’m a Registered Acupuncturist. I play with ‘qi’ all day. I diagnose according to old methods in the forms of:

Nature, eg: Wind, Damp, Dry, Heat, Fire
Yin and Yang
Five Elements
etc

With all that being said, I once went to a seminar put on by a prominent WC Sifu. In the middle of this seminar, he started talking about the five elements and how they related to combat and WC specifically. Wanting to call him on his BS, I asked him if the overacting or even the destruction sequences could be used in a fight. ‘Of course!’ he told me and after I asked for a demonstration, I realized that my money would have been better spent buying the DVD instead (or downloading it from a Bit Torrent).

So. I’m with T.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1060684]
TMAists don’t want to accept that – even though the evidence overwhelmingly demonstrates it – for three main reasons. First, many people are attracted to the TMAs by the nonsense (they want to believe in the fantasy - like that you can develop fighting skills by not fighting). Second, they didn’t learn via the sport-model so they have no idea of how to teach/train that way. And third, the sport-model of training makes doing the activity itself the core of the training.

That last point is extremely threatening to most people in TMAs and WCK. It’s threatening to instructors since it will expose their genuine level of skill (that is their lack of skill) and will cost them students since many, if not most, people are attracted to the TCMAs precisely because those arts don’t involve fighting. I mean, if you told prospective students the truth, that they can only develop skill by fighting, and that their skill level will essentially depend on how often they take beatings, most people wouldn’t take their classes.[/QUOTE]

The majority of people I meet don’t want to train with me once they realize they will have to put on some gear and bang. Case in point.

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Let’s see where I can start :cool:

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1060684]Point me to a link that shows this 5 Element way of teaching (that is not a part of your lineage).[/QUOTE]

I have not seen it taught in other lineages T. Even among my own family it seems my Sifu was the one to receive this sort of learning. From my research Lee Shing was a trained TCMedicine practitioner and he knew how to adapt that knowledge into his Martial Arts teaching.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1060684]And point me to ONE person who has used this theory to develop any PROVEN significant level of fighting skill.[/QUOTE]

Ok. If it hasn’t had the ‘air time’ why would anyone already have trained it? Other than my brothers (who are now too old to compete!) there is only me. I would have to say though, read the 5 elements that construct Wing Chun. EVERYBODY trains that, it’s just the knowledge behind what element is what is missing. Some are not even aware they’re doing it, or have been doing it for ages :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1060684]No, you’ve not seen anyone train WCK like they train sports. And this isn’t about any “quick fix.” The sport model of training takes advantage of how human beings BEST learn and develop physical and athletic skills.[/QUOTE]

I feel another loooooong debate coming on :D;) The sport model is fine for some, who want to compete, but for me Martial Art is not a sport. I don’t mean it’s pointless either. Each to their own. But where do you think the development of sport training originated? Olympia in Greece? Or modern day America?

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[QUOTE=couch;1060691]If you don’t already know, I’m a Registered Acupuncturist. I play with ‘qi’ all day. I diagnose according to old methods in the forms of:

Nature, eg: Wind, Damp, Dry, Heat, Fire
Yin and Yang
Five Elements
etc[/QUOTE]

So, please explain what you know about the 5 elements and their link to diagnosis. Briefly! :wink:

[QUOTE=couch;1060691]With all that being said, I once went to a seminar put on by a prominent WC Sifu…[/QUOTE]

:eek: I think I know who you mean, especially if it was in the last 5 years.

Like I’ve said, I have not seen anyone teach in the same manner I have had the pleasure to learn. I’ve seen ‘attempts’ but in all honesty it was pretty clear that their actual experience was not the same and even confused. One guy in particular had a very good understanding of how he used the 5 elements in his diet and nutrition program, but he couldn’t apply it to his body and movement.

Out of interest, and drawing from your 5 element studies, could you characterize student sparring styles to the 5 elements? 5 types of interaction? 5 types of feeling?

example; someone is grabbing you all the time, rubbing or pinching your arms and body, pulling and pushing you around without letting go. What element is that?

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1060700]
I have not seen it taught in other lineages T. Even among my own family it seems my Sifu was the one to receive this sort of learning. From my research Lee Shing was a trained TCMedicine practitioner and he knew how to adapt that knowledge into his Martial Arts teaching.
[/QUOTE]

So, in other words, this isn’t “some ancient Chinese secret” (LOL!) but something that is unique to your lineage, and you don’t even know where it comes from.

Ok. If it hasn’t had the ‘air time’ why would anyone already have trained it? Other than my brothers (who are now too old to compete!) there is only me. I would have to say though, read the 5 elements that construct Wing Chun. EVERYBODY trains that, it’s just the knowledge behind what element is what is missing. Some are not even aware they’re doing it, or have been doing it for ages :rolleyes:

So, in other words, you can’t name a single proven fighter that has used this 5 Element approach to learning.

I feel another loooooong debate coming on :D;) The sport model is fine for some, who want to compete, but for me Martial Art is not a sport. I don’t mean it’s pointless either. Each to their own. But where do you think the development of sport training originated? Olympia in Greece? Or modern day America?

Where did science originate? WTF does it matter? It has proved itself to be the best way to learn what is true about the natural world.

Sport isn’t only good if you “want to compete.” It is the BEST way to learn and develop physical/athletic skill. Far superior in every way to the traditional approaches. If you want to “play the game” - or engage in the activity - the sport model is the way to go, whether competition or simply recreation.

You can “debate” until the cows come home but the evidence is in and has been for a long time.

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1060705]Like I’ve said, I have not seen anyone teach in the same manner I have had the pleasure to learn. I’ve seen ‘attempts’ but in all honesty it was pretty clear that their actual experience was not the same and even confused. One guy in particular had a very good understanding of how he used the 5 elements in his diet and nutrition program, but he couldn’t apply it to his body and movement.

Out of interest, and drawing from your 5 element studies, could you characterize student sparring styles to the 5 elements? 5 types of interaction? 5 types of feeling?
[/QUOTE]
Sure - no problem. I can include how 5 elements are used in fighting training:

Wood - goes in my fireplace for heat. Heat is mostly used in recovery time in the winter.

Fire - interacts with wood to produce heat.

Earth - that’s the planet where the gym I train at is located. As opposed to Pluto or Mars where many others train their theories at.

Metal - that’s what my auto is built from. I drive this to and from training sessions.

Water - I need lots of this to replace fluid evaporation from training strenuously. Hydration is very important when fighting training.

example; someone is grabbing you all the time, rubbing or pinching your arms and body, pulling and pushing you around without letting go. What element is that?

An element of gayness?

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1060684]Point me to a link that shows this 5 Element way of teaching (that is not a part of your lineage).

And point me to ONE person who has used this theory to develop any PROVEN significant level of fighting skill.[/QUOTE]

The 5 element theory is always used in TCMA. When you fight someone, 1st you analyze what kind of fighter he is. You then pick up the right strategy to against him. For example,

Metal - use hard edges to against punches and kicks (Southern CMA guys).
Wood - use long range kicks (TKD guys).
Earth - strong defense, move in inch by inch (Kempo guys).
Water- defense and conservative fighters (Taiji, Aikido guys).
Fire - move around fast with great footwork (boxers).

It’s not hard to figure how to deal with a TKD challenger ot Kempo challenger by using this list.

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1060705]So, please explain what you know about the 5 elements and their link to diagnosis. Briefly! :wink:
[/QUOTE]

Not being a jerk, but briefly might not work. Three years of schooling is not what I call brief! :slight_smile:
Here’s a good link: http://www.yinyanghouse.com/theory/chinese/five_element_acupuncture_theory

Out of interest, and drawing from your 5 element studies, could you characterize student sparring styles to the 5 elements? 5 types of interaction? 5 types of feeling?

example; someone is grabbing you all the time, rubbing or pinching your arms and body, pulling and pushing you around without letting go. What element is that?

I apologize as I’m not able to do this for fighting. Honestly, I’m a really big minimalist. The biggest problem I had with this is that there are too many factors involved. Ie: if a guy is very rigid, you do this…if a guy comes with this, you do this. That didn’t make sense to me in so many ways. I don’t want a catalog of style vs. style or technique vs. technique…that’s why I fell in love with the ‘system’ of WC.

Wing Chun, to me, is a simple, streamlined version of fighting and to make it so complicated with all that theory just confuddles my brain and I would think it does the same to others.

Best,
CTK

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So, please explain what you know about the 5 elements and their link to diagnosis. Briefly!

If anyone can play, you can look at the TCM info in my .sig. (no, it ain’t brief either). I didn’t do the three or five year schooling, but did do a six month acupressure course with one of the first HK and Taiwan trained gwailo acupuncturists in Australia. So I’m not a total noob here.

In my experience 5 element theory does not underpin WC, certainly not TWC. Xingyi, OTOH, is strongly based on 5 element theory. I’ve not heard of a five element approach to educational pedagogy prior to this thread, and doubt I ever will again.

Five element theory is more than just five categories or concordances. There are the nourishing and checking, Sheng and Ko cycles, to consider, among other things, about which you say little.

I am sceptical of an philosophical approach that claims all aspects of everything can be split into five categories, and that such categorisation will achieve demonstrably superior results.. This does not match observed reality unless you put the right blinkers on and keep them firmly in place. The Illuminatus! trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea parodied this with their Law Of Fives.

The results of TCMA educational approaches (if such a term is in fact justified) are generally pretty woeful compared to modern approaches. Too much blind adherence to tradition, willful misinformation, secrecy, emotional blackmail, etc. etc.

I’d be very suspicious of anyone coming to me with such an approach to training and learning, when demonstrably proven educational models abound elsewhere.

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[QUOTE=anerlich;1060834]
I am sceptical of an philosophical approach that claims all aspects of everything can be split into five categories, and that such categorisation will achieve demonstrably superior results.. This does not match observed reality unless you put the right blinkers on and keep them firmly in place. The Illuminatus! trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea parodied this with their Law Of Fives.

The results of TCMA educational approaches (if such a term is in fact justified) are generally pretty woeful compared to modern approaches. Too much blind adherence to tradition, willful misinformation, secrecy, emotional blackmail, etc. etc.

I’d be very suspicious of anyone coming to me with such an approach to training and learning, when demonstrably proven educational models abound elsewhere.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. That’s why in Chinese Medicine, if a diagnosis doesn’t fit the ‘5-Element’ mold, but it makes sense according to Qi, Blood, Body Fluids - the other model gets dumped.

I call the ancients ‘pack-rats.’ In that they never threw out a theory. The study of Cold Diseases is still prevalent today even though the school of of Warm Diseases appeared later on…both ‘schools’ of thought are valid in the proper context.

…wonder what the h3ll happened in Chinese martial arts-land!!! :wink:

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u63OJRXyq68

Gary Lam teaches it…I’ve also learnt Lee Shing WC as well as WSL/Gary Lam WC…

Same theory, different expressions

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For Terence’s information, the 5 Element theory is used in other TCMA styles, including Hsing I and Five Ancestor Fist (Ngo Cho), and I have been told that in rare cases in Wing Chun, so what Lone Tiger108 is saying is not so out of this world.

Spencer, if you are reading this, just to say that I tried to send you a private message in regards the 5 Elements in TCMAs, but your mailbox seems to be full.:frowning:

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[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1061012]Spencer, if you are reading this, just to say that I tried to send you a private message in regards the 5 Elements in TCMAs, but your mailbox seems to be full.:([/QUOTE]

Just email me directly dude :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1061047]Just email me directly dude :)[/QUOTE]

Ok thanks. I just emailed you.:slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=anerlich;1060834]I’d be very suspicious of anyone coming to me with such an approach to training and learning, when demonstrably proven educational models abound elsewhere.[/QUOTE]

Out of interest, I would like to know what ‘educational models’ there actually are out there for Chinese Martial Arts? Could you share some info?

My resoning for starting this thread was to ‘put an idea out there’. An idea thats had its testing already, and I believe works very well indeed. I know people may think it’s just bundled together, but I ask you to look at Martial Arts and tell me what exists outside of the areas I have mentioned as the construct of Wing Chun?

The 5 Elements are only one of many ideas that I have used in learning and teaching. We named our school The Yum Yeurng (Yin Yang) Academy because we specialized in that field of learning too. Each of the older concepts has their uniqueness and all can work towards the completion of a style or system. So, before anyone starts throwing a hissy fit, have a look around at Martial Arts schools who use the Plum Flower in their logos, because that’s a start… :wink:

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Out of interest, I would like to know what ‘educational models’ there actually are out there for Chinese Martial Arts? Could you share some info?

You were the one claiming such models exist, not me. You are the only proponent of such models on the thread so far.

I was talking more general education.

As I stated, I believe the traditional educational “models” for TCMA are pretty woeful, e.g. do what Sifu says, don’t discuss anything outside, don’t cross train or seek outside opinions, clean the school and do errands for the Sifu and teach classes without reward and maybe you’ll get thrown the occasional bone, just teach whathever you feel like on the day and if someone asks a difficult question lose your rag and go to your office and sulk, mix the fighting techniques up with TCM and mystical allusions to make them sound hotter than they really are, etc. etc.

It ain’t all like that, but there is too much of it …

MA curricula abound, even on the web for TCMA. Check 'em out.

If you’re talking MA in general, I would advocate reviewing Matt Thornton’s I-method and his other aliveness-related training methods. Finding these on Google shouldn’t be too much of a stretch. You might read Tom Kurz’s “Science of Sports Training”, look at some national sports coaching qualification curricula, etc. I read an excellent book on mental toughness training called 10 minute Toughness recently, FWIW. If you feel TCMA and sports performance aren’t related (you’d be in the minority IMO) look at how soldiers are trained.

My resoning for starting this thread was to ‘put an idea out there’. An idea thats had its testing already, and I believe works very well indeed.

Without objective comparisons of the results vs effort with other methods, that’s a judgement call, I guess. What you’ve put out is a bit light, both on detail of the method itself, and how it fits into the TCMA 5 element theory (e.g. nourishing and checking cycles, concordances, etc), as I mentioned earlier. Having five categories of everything doesn’t necessarily mean you follow 5 element theory. Not saying your method doesn’t work, but use of the magical number five doesn’t necessarily mean it will.

So, before anyone starts throwing a hissy fit

Yes, it would be unfortunate if you or anyone else were to do that.